Casting.. At what level !!

[DavyWotton]

Mike, before l start with this thread, perhaps you could add a page for casting related issues here.

OK, guys, had a couple of students in for fly casting, they wished to improve on what they are able to do at this time.

Now this is not always as easy as it may sound.

So from the get go.
We all know that casting is fundamental to be able to fly fish.

There are many things related that you have to do to make casting as such become, if you like second nature, at least for a fishing scenario, which is for the most part that you will do with a fly rod. For me that diifers as casting itself is something l enjoy to do for many other reasons.

As a rule of thumb you wil be guided to you choice by what you intend to fish for, the advice from a fly shop, may be a friend and so on.

So you got the gear. Now what.
How did you from that point on pursue to learn how to cast.  From a friend, the fly shop staff, may be a qualified instructor.
Either way, that will give you, or should some good basic understanding of the principles of the casting stroke, of which there are essentially two. Forward and back, or as FC-BC.
There are other casts that do not employ a back cast as such, but right now that is another matter.

So we get going to the river and proceed with our limited knowledge the physical act of getting the fly line and the  fly on the water, that is how we catch fish.

From this point on you venture to fish, and as a rule you will start to make better presentations within the limits of your skill at that time.
You will be doing one of too things, l can assure you.  You will be making good effortless casts, or you will be hindered by your limits of skill. It is one or the other !!

Where do we go from here.

OK, you may decide that in order for you to gain more skill then you need to go get further instruction, or you may settle for what you can do, be that good or bad, and in most cases it will not be good, unless you are one of the very few persons who has the ability to understand the concepts and then put them into practice.
But even then you cannot do that by yourself.
You may find the information needed by watching tapes, reading books, watching other casters and may be just asking for advice.

They are your options here.

So, how do you value the importance of your casting ability.

If there is one major problem that exists in the fly fishing world, it is overall casting skills, as much else you will do is directly related to that.

Ok, you may say, no matter to me, l only fish short ranges, say up to 20/30 ft of line on the water. And you may be comfortable with that.
But can you honestly say, that you would not wish to be a way better caster. Might you not consider a trip to fish saltwater or other desinations that may welll require at least 70ft or more ranges !!

To be able to make those perfet touch downs at ranges over that even when fishing local lakes and rivers !!.

As yet l have not meet a person who has said to me, they willl settle for what they can do. There is almost always a willl to learn, as the end result is that is you will be able to catch more fish. Under many prevailing conditions, such as dealing with wind, longer ranges and so forth.

What is it going to take from you to be able to do that.

Period,  the will to do so, and second to that is the time needed to be able to do that.

There is no way in the world you will become a real good caster without that imput.
A day of fishing is not the way to go either, as you will be concerned with fishing and give little thought to casting.
How often do you look at your back cast, only when you have hung up.

The BC is the very essence of good casting skills, along with other factors accepted.

Distance is a relative factor. How would you define that.

OK, moderate distances are around say the 40 to 60 ft range. Longer than that we are looking at 60 to 90.  Over and above that, 90 to 120 we are looking at extream ranges within the normal capability of standard rods and high end casting skill.

With avergage rods of 9ft in the 5wt range 60 to 70 ft is well within most fly fishers reach, if they wish to acquire it. And 100 plus if you are prepared to put the hours in to learn that.

If you can pick up 40ft of line, the effort to shoot line to 60 plus is very little, would you believe, but you have to know what to do.
And the bottom line is line speed, with directed control by you with the casting arm used.

No false cast needed, pick up, BC to FC, done.
 A 3wt rod will do that no problem.

I have has comments made to me such as, my rod will not allow me to do that. I very much doubt that is the problem here.
Provided rod and line wt used are correct.

So my clients who were very low of casting skill, now wish to attain better skills.
But they have already due to faulty casting technique developed some very problamatical issues that will not be easy to deal with, at least for them.

So how am l going to deal with this.

Alll for now, part two to follow.

Davy.

[MikeA]

Well to start with I am one of the ones who has developed my own casting by watching videos, reading, yard casting, untangling tippet, lots of tippet, and lots of time on the water. I have not hired an instructor yet but I know I need to. As far as casting related issues, mine seem infinite, mostly due to my reluctance to get help. I plan to join a class with my 13 year old daughter soon.

In a typical day I will use a med action 1 WT for midgeing, a fast action 3/4 WT for nymphing, a fast action 7 WT for dries in high water, and a super fast 8wt for streamers in high water. Needless to say I have to make some adjustments to my cast for the different rod actions and WT’s. Going from a 1 WT DT to a 350 grain on an 8WT or vise versa can take some time to adjust.

A lot of my problems seem to start when I go for distance with a floating line. Add an indicator a couple of shot and two flies on a long tippet and you got a recipe for a knot untying contest. I can tie the most complex knots man has ever known simply by waving a stick in the air…I will admit that I have gotten much better then I used to be at preventing this but I don’t know if I am doing anything right or not.

Another problem that I have had is dumping casts with a heavy shooting head (350 grain integrated line). I switched rods from a fast 7wt to a super fast 8 and this problem has pretty much gone away. Brian on the other hand is using a med fast rod and still has problems keeping his flies out of my hat… This would explain why you’ll see me in a motorcycle helmet with a face shield when we’re fishing streamers together. Sorry buddy I couldn’t resist that one.

I can hit 60 or 70’ easily with a shooting head but I feel like I should be able to cast backing out the tip top with these lines. This is something I don’t necessarily need to do but I would like to be able to.

The style I have developed that came natural to me is a side arm casting style and I rarely go directly overhead. This is especially true with shooting heads. I almost never go overhead with them because it puts me in the path of an errant cast. This year I have made an effort to change to an over the shoulder casting style with floating lines and I am getting better but I think a good lesson from and instructor would be very beneficial.

Then there is the tailing loop. Ahhh yes the slice of fly fishing. Mine likes to show up two times. 1. When someone is watching who I want to impress with my casting or golfing skills. 2. Anytime I try to go further then 70’, golf or casting.

One other thing while I am on the subject. Deep nymphing at short distances gives me trouble still. I am attempting to fish with 7 to 8’ of leader, splits, and flies below my indicator. I use an 8’6” 3/4 WT Dancraft blank and I think maybe it is not the correct rod for this application.


Thanks for this post Davy.


Mike

[DavyWotton]

Mike,

Let me see if l can help you here a little.

Deep water fishing. There really is no need for a line with a taper designed for surface presentations.

I use low cost lines made by SA from Wallmart. I cut off the first 5 ft as a rule. That should help to eliminate some of your problems.
You can also go with line that are some what worn out, just cut the line back, more or less a level line is way ok here.
The other thing is l use londer rods, l prefer 10ft, but a good 9 to 9.6in is as good.

Casting.
I am going to add way more to my first post about this subject.

As you do say here the addition of shot, indicators etc will have some related effects to your turnover, you can avoid that by throwing a much wider forward loop. watch the line and drop the rod to open it. If you have the right line speed if should deal with that one.
Also slow the casting stroke down, high line speed is not needed, as a rule you will not be fishing long ranges here.

The techniques used for a shooting head does differ from a full fly line, but that may also be related to the type of fly line that you are using, do they have long wf taper profiles or short ones.
There is if you like a sweet spot, that with little further energy if you have all else good, that you should be able to shoot that line a good way forward.

Even l will tell you that to hang out of the rod tip a long length of shooting line is difficult, the forward section of the line, unless it is moving very fast will drop behind you.
It is more or less the same principle as using a shooting head with backing line.
Tournament casting style is way different to a fishing scenario for the best part.
But, saying that, most conventional wf profiles, should enable at least 80ft and may be more, distance wise.

I will deal with the other issues Mike with the following on with my post ok.

Davy.

[DavyWotton]

Lesson one.

Accept that fly rod design differs, length, action and related line wt given for that rod.

The action of the rod be it fast, med, slow, does have a direct bearing on how you would deal with that rod during the physical act of the casting stroke.
Do not assume that a fast action rod is going to make you a better caster, for unless you have the skill to use that rod for its potential, the odds are it will not.

I prefer to teach with mid flex action rods. The casting stroke can be made way slower, and all things being right, the student will begin to feel the effects of loading caused by that fly line.
And they will have more time to deal with sight of line track, and other factors.

From the get go.  Your arm and wrist are what will control the movement of that rod. Of course your brain does send the signals.

Strange as it may seem, casting is not a requisite of massive amounts of energy, in other words a strongman is not in a better positon than the guy who sits at a desk all day.
The average fly fisher doe's tend to use way more energy than is really needed.
If l was to demonstrate to you the difference between say 6o to 90ft, you will not see too much difference other than how l will direct  my rod position, and my increased line speed. That is all it amounts to. Line speed, that is what causes it to move forward.
You have to do that in such a way as the line  whilst in the air , is dynamic in its profile.

If you have ever had the opportunity to watch a real class fly caster, you will, or should identify many things by watching his actions.
And you should concentrate on what he is doing with his casting arm,  not the fly line !! as that directs all else that takes place.

Now, l cannot be there with you to see what you are doing, right or wrong.

I accept that when fishing, is is not always easy if you like to have the perfect stance.

But it is very important to be consistent with what you choose to use. More of that in a further post.

I also know, that many guys, for the fear of the fly line and fly hitting them cast way out to the side, or at angles that will not allow you to make either very accurate or long range casts. And the reason why is mainly due to the fact that you will pull the rod around and not be able to maintain the rod tip tracking in a straight line, that will have adverse effect to the fly line travel.

Saying that, a good caster understands that, and knows how to make a cast at any angle.

The way to learn good technique is by making direct overhead casts.

If the fly line is hitting you , it is because you are not moving the line at the right speed, not paying attention to what you are causing the rod to do, or both.

As a rule a fly cast always starts with the fly line being taken into the BC. And that initial pick up is vital for all else that follows.

You then come to the second position which is the RSP, rod stop position. At this time the fly line should be directed to the BC in such as way as it is above horizontal, and remain there untill the line and leader have turned over more or less straight.
You have to give what we term as drift, that is a gentle backward movement of the rod, that kills if you like the sudden shock of the fly line coming to a dead stop, it is a very gradual drift, very important.

And to know when to do that you need to see the fly line behind you.
Or after years of doing it right develope the sense of feel when to do so.

You then make from here the FC, at this time you determine how the fly line will track, high, horizontal or low, with a defined tracking loop.

It is at this time, that many believe there needs to be a great amount of additional energy applied, that is not so, if you have the BC correct.
Now l am not talking about extream distance here by the way, 100 ft plus.
We are dealing with moderate ranges of 30 to 60 and may be a little more.

The rod tip, will provided the energy given,  determine the path of the fly line.

And you have the key to make that happen, it will not do it by itself.

And the basis of all of this to take place, is what you are doing with your casting arm and wrist control.
I might add here also that a stiff  wrist is not the answer. The wrist plays a very important part in the make up of good casting skill. But in a controlled way. Yes, a brocken wrist with no control is of no use.

So as a start l will tell you to with a black waterproof marker. Mark your fly line at 20/30/40/50ft.  So as you can recognise that.

And l will explain next post why that is so.

All for now,

Davy.

[MikeA]

Davy my casting is already improving, thanks. I am looking forward to hearing about wrist action. I use my wrist ALOT.

On a side note I use those football strike indicators alot and have noticed a huge difference when casting them vs yarn. If I go overhead with the foam my loop closes and ends in a mess. This is why I learned to go to the side to prevent this. However with yarn I found I can cast normally and I don’t have that problem. I can even cast tight loops out to 40’+ and not tangle. I like the foam because they are easily adjustable and have 0 impact on your tippet strength but I am starting to think they have a very negative impact on casting. What is your opinion on this?

Thanks again for this topic.

[DavyWotton]

Mike,

Sorry guys, been away for a while.  I have this past week filmed a DVD which is related to both the White and Norfork rivers.

More or less what we have done is to go from both dams, and cover some 70 miles of the rivers. AS we did that we cover all the access points, boat ramps and walk in wade.
Covered all the well known and other shoals and riffles, with tons of info related to how the river cahnges as you track down stream.
Means and methods of fishing and all else.
Aspects of safety, what you need to pay attention too and so forth.

What this all amounts to is that visitors and locals will be able to purchase a DVD that tells them about the river.
Should be out there October some time.

Mike your question related to indicators.

I use two ways to attach yarn. For the heavy water situations l use those with a small o ring. I can easy alter the relative distance form the fly, by the way that l make my leader configuratios, as for high water.

The other is l use a double loop system for a set distance, but that can be changed quick enough.
More or less l know my river and due to that know what l need so far as the average distance from the fly.

I very much doubt that by this means there is any reduction with tippet strenght loss as the connection does not cause the mono to tighten into itself. In fact l have never had it break at that point, and as you would know we are dealing with some very big fish at times here, way over 5lb and in fast water at times.

In so far as a indicator causing problems with the cast turn over, or causing tailing loops.
I think much of this problem may well be due to the formation of your FC and BC loops. There is not doubt that at times you have to consider wind factors out there.

The other issue is how you have made up your leader/tippet configurations, related to the bulk size of the indicator used, as larger indicators are not dynamic in that sense of of the word.
Again here refer to how l make up my systems for nymph fishing.
I do use a heavy butt section, and then from that point add the length of tippet l choose to use. Be that 4 or more feet of the same BS for the best part.

I kind of look at it like this Mike, it takes me but a few seconds to re-rig a set yarn indicator.  If anything l think that many guys out there set the indicator way to close to the fly, you will be surprised how far you can set it and still have good take detection, provided you set the fly line, leader, indicator a and fly out there in the rigth way and not as a jumbled mess.

The trick is also to use the minimum of indicator needed, one reason why l like yarn, as l can cut down and tune that.

Wrist control.

There is no short answer to this one.  The best casters in the world have a 100% control over how the wrist is used for the particular cast used at that time.

the most common faults l see are this.  Way too much energy used for the relative distance cast.
Way to much extended arm movement.
Lack of wrist control.

Now they are all related of course.

Given the atmospheric conditions being good, low humidity and very little wind, with more or less my wrist, a 5wt line and a short haul, l can throw 90ft of line.

When l make the initial pick up l will have a frim grip of the rod. That allows for the acceleration that l am looking for into the BC.
My wrist will start with the thumb pointing forward and the wrist turned down toward the rod direction.
I then raise the rod with is maintained wrist position.
When my wrist is more or less at a position at ear height, from then l relax my grip, allow my rod to drift back with a turn back of my wrist . More or less here my wrist is in a straight line from my elbow and not cranked. My thumb, is in line with the rod butt.

Just a fraction of a second before my line is fully extended, that is when l make the FC stroke. It is a very fast turn over of the wrist at this point with the left hand haul timed with that.
My arm, does not extend a great way from by body here. In fact my upper arm will be more or less close to my body, and my for arm will extend a short way till l reach the rod stop position, and than a short forward drift to follow through with the fly line.

During my forward stroke, l push with my thumb and pull with my 1/2/3 fingers. It is not a hard grip by any means, in fact if you saw it you would begin to wonder how you can generate such high line speed this way, and that is what good casting is all about.
Controllled line speed, with direction.
As you would see the rod butt visibly move in my hand.

You have to be able to maintain the thumb tracking in a straight line, or you will cause the rod tip to deviate above or below the tip rod plane. That will cause either a wide forward open loop, or a tailing loop.

The above also determines how your FC and BC loops are formed.

In other words, what l am doing is this. I am building into the rod the energy required with as short a movement as l can. Extended arm movements for very long ranges are a very different matter, as 90ft or more.
In this case l may well have my casting arm way extended to the rear as far as it can go with the rod at a horizontal position to the ground.

Mike, l leave here Friday to go to MT for two weeks, so will be back with you guys on my return .

I will get with the casting lesson post before l leave, ok

Davy.

[MikeA]

Very good info as usual Davy. I hope you enjoy your time in MT.