Author Topic: Those Wiggle Minnows...  (Read 7950 times)

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bd

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Those Wiggle Minnows...
« on: March 27, 2008, 01:44:05 PM »
How does a person go about getting some of those?  After fishing with Mike while he threw one of the big ones for muskie, I'd like to pick up maybe half a dozen or so of the smaller ones to try for trout fishing.

And to whoever it is that's tying them - have you ever thought about adding a tiny bit of weight and tying a neutrally bouyant (or very slow sinking) version? 

bd

Fly South

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2008, 03:16:45 PM »
Brian,

We've got plenty of them in stock in many different colors!

Monroe

bd

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2008, 03:35:10 PM »
Thanks - I will have to swing by and take a look! 

A couple of the ones Mike was throwing were articulated or "jointed" - do you stock those?

bd

MikeA

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2008, 04:13:46 PM »
BD Fly South has the smaller version but the larger ones you saw me using were made by a member here who’s board name is Maniac. I'm pretty sure he's selling them so PM him. The inventor of the Todd's wiggle Minnow is also a member here, his board name is Surface Junkie. Both guys are very innovative and talented tiers.

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bd

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2008, 07:56:23 PM »
I'm not looking for anything nearly as big as the flies you were throwing for muskie.

I'm just looking for something maybe 3.5 to 4" - about the size of...  *cough*  a jointed rapala...

(hides head in shame...)

 ;D

bd

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2008, 08:24:53 PM »
And to whoever it is that's tying them - have you ever thought about adding a tiny bit of weight and tying a neutrally bouyant (or very slow sinking) version? 

bd

Fish it with a sink-tip, bd.  As far as weighting the fly.  I'll bet Todd has tried it before and it impaired the wiggle.  When fishing them on a sink-tip we mostly use a 2-4ft leader.

bd

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2008, 10:57:00 AM »
Yeah, I'm used to fishing streamers on sink tips.  The thing I'm not thrilled about is the visibility of that tip in close proximity to the fly.  With a streamer that floats, you have to keep the leader between the fly and the sink tip short, or you won't get it down deep enough on an aggressive retrieve.  This puts your fly only a few feet away from a line that sticks out like a sore thumb.

This isn't just a problem with wiggle minnows - zoo cougars and some of my other favorite big trout streamers are very bouyant too.

I've been told that it doesn't make any difference and the fish don't notice, but I've been doing some "experiments" over the past couple months and I'm starting to disagree.  Not so much on the smaller fish, but the really big trout tend to take one or two passes at a streamer before they eat, and I'm convinced that a few have been turned off by the line.  You don't get a "drive-by" from a 25+ inch trout on every trip, so you've got to maximize your odds when one turns up.

One solution is to lengthen the leader and use a weighted fly like a clouser deep minnow, but the clouser doesn't have the erratic action I'm looking for.  I'm thinking a neutrally bouyant, articulated wiggle minnow might be getting pretty close to perfection.

bd


Maniac

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2008, 04:16:25 PM »
Neutrally bouyant.  Sounds like a good idea, but it's much more complex than you would think.  I've been working on this problem for years; I'm sure Todd has also.  He has almost achieved this with his ToBo Crawdad (see this fly on the flytyingforum.com).  With the ToBo Crawdad, Todd has come up with an almost-neutral fly that imitates the ACTION of a fleeing crawdad very closely.  However, doing this with a fly that has a "lip" or "face" that causes the wiggle, is a complex problem.  You see, there is a fine balance between gravity pulling the fly down, and Archimedes principle pushing the fly back up.  Without this "floating" quality, the fly would be more likely to roll, and then you end up with a fly similar to several other designs out there that "wiggle",  except they wiggle a short ways and then they roll, and twist your line.  So Todd's Wiggle Minnow is really a triumph in Design, in that it is the first fly to have a "resonance" or "wiggle" like that of an engineered plug without rolling.

Using heavier foam, or a heavier hook, or adding weight to the inside, all have a similar effect: they make the overall density of the fly higher, but the inevitable effect of this density, is that it reduces the "wiggle" or "resonance" of the fly.  The more weight you add, the less the fly wiggles, and the more it is just dead in the water; that is, it no longer wiggles effectively.  This has been done before, and it is called a Gummy Minnow (hehe)--neat looking fly, but zero-action.  I've tried all varieties, and my conclusion is that, even with just a little density or weight added to this design, the benefit gained does not outweigh (pun intended) the disadvantage of the loss of "wiggle".

So how do engineered plugs wiggle without rolling?  That is a good question....but the answer is beyond the scope of this...

I think the "answer" to this fly-design question, is to adjust your sink-tip.  Using a flourocarbon leader of 10-50 inches and 8 to 20-pound test, I have been able to fish Todd's Wiggle Minnow effectively in shallow or deep water.  In very shallow water, for river smallies or largemouth in a shallow pond, for example, I use a longer leader (about 4 feet) and floating or clear-intermediate line.  In deeper, faster water, I use a 400-grain sink-tip and a 10-inch leader.  Another thing I like to do to all of my dark-colored sink-tips is to color the entire tip with black permanent marker; this tends to erase any shine that might be on the tip or loop-to-loop connection.

That is my $.02 on Todd's Wiggle Minnow; hope this helps.

bd

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2008, 05:02:02 PM »
Thanks for the information - great response.  I should have known it would be tougher than it seems. 

Definitely a problem in need of a solution - alas, I have no talent for designing flies, so I'll wait for you guys to solve it.   :)

If I can ever get out from under this pile of work on my desk, I'll stop by Fly South and check out their selection on the wiggle minnows.

bd

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2008, 08:13:33 PM »
I've been told that it doesn't make any difference and the fish don't notice, but I've been doing some "experiments" over the past couple months and I'm starting to disagree.  Not so much on the smaller fish, but the really big trout tend to take one or two passes at a streamer before they eat, and I'm convinced that a few have been turned off by the line.  You don't get a "drive-by" from a 25+ inch trout on every trip, so you've got to maximize your odds when one turns up.

bd



It may make a difference when the water is low, but I'll bet when the flows are heavy the fish don't notice as much.  It's more of an instinctive/survival thing then.  In other words, I don't think they're very discerning during heavy flows.  I catch about 90% of my trophy sized trout during releases.

I think when a big fish makes a  pass it may be territorial or it may actually be a miss from the fish.  Lots of variables to be included in an experiment.  Are the days bright or overcast?  On a bright day it may be better to use a darker fly if the fish are taking up near the surface.  If you bring a fish up from the depths and they're looking at a bright surface then a light colored fly doesn't provide much contrast. 

I agree with you about the neutrally buoyant Wiggle Minnow.  It would be another fantastic fly.  If anyone produces one,  it will most likely be Todd or Scott.  They're all about fly design and the nuances of the Todd's Wiggle Minnow.

Maniac

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2008, 11:03:31 AM »
Hehe I just got off the phone with Kyle, who floated the Caney yesterday (& today) with Mike & Jarrod.  Sounds like trout like the Wiggle Minnow too eh?  Hehe glad you guys had a good float yesterday; hope you get a double-digit brown today.  Best of luck, & please post pictures!  (Wish I was there!)

Mike Hill

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2008, 02:36:11 PM »
Pictures forthcoming - when Mike gets back!

Maniac

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2008, 03:08:20 PM »
so were you with them yesterday Caneyscud?  I heard they got almost all browns.  Get any over 5?  any over 20"?  dang I wish I was over thar....

jarrod white

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Re: Those Wiggle Minnows...
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2008, 08:18:05 PM »
 :o :o :o :o :o :o ;D
I just don't care!