Fishing for fish on redds ethical or not !!

[MikeA]

Ok, there’s been some discussion among several of us Fly Fishermen about whether or not to fish the Redds (Trout spawning beds). There are a lot of different opinions on this subject and most seem to be based on the argument of whether or not it’s ethical to fish for spawning Trout. Granted all the rivers I fish are stocked rivers and according to all the information published by TWRA and the KY DNR, these rivers are not natural reproducing rivers. I have even heard that the Trout in these rivers are not genetically capable of spawning. However, that was also said about the South Holston River where obviously there was some natural reproduction going on and enough to sustain a decent population,,,, we think. So I want to limit this discussion to this type of river and not Mountain streams with natural populations of “wild” Brown, Brook, and Rainbow Trout.


My fishing background is Bluegill as a child then Bass as I got older, Striper when I hit about 29, but Trout I have chased (with spinning gear first and a fly rod later) for all of those years. Needless to say anybody who has fished for Bulegill, Bass, Striper, Stripe, Crappie, Walleye, Sauger, (ALASKA), etc, knows when the fish go to spawn it’s time to get on the water. That’s the way it’s been here for a loooong time. TWRA and the KY DNR have done a fantastic job of making sure that every year there are enough of these fish to go around with annual stocking programs.
So with that said naturally Trout are the same right? Well, that depends on who you talk to. I will say that I do fish to Spawning Trout. I fish year round rain sun or snow and so when a fish moves to a place where I can catch it, I fish for it. When the Musky move up river to spawn I’ll be there, when the Smallmouth Bass and Striper move up I’ll be there Same for Carp and many other fish. Much of my season is based on the spawning movements of these fish. Bottom line, I am not ashamed of it, and I don’t pretend that I don’t do it. Also, IMO if you are fishing a spawning shoal just below a Brown Trout Redd and catching Brown Trout, YOU ARE FISHING REDDS! So where are we supposed to draw the line?

I have asked Davy Wotton to come back over and give us his view on the subject even though he and I differ in opinions. I always like to hear a different view on these kind of subjects, especially when it is someone who knows what the hell he’s talking about. Who knows maybe Davy can change my evil ways.

I would like to encourage everyone who reads this to chime in with your opinion but also to keep an open mind. Let’s also keep it informative and not a mud slinging contest.


Thanks
Mike

[DavyWotton]

Ok, l realise that  this is for some a very imotive subject, and before you read my reply have the respect to accept my views on this subject.
It is over all not a debate in my book

You either think it to be ok or you do not.

I am from the UK.

There it would be illegal to knowingly fish for gravid fish. That is fish that are pre-during and after spawn. Salmonids.
And if you were fishing for them you would be fishing during the close season that applies for all rivers.
There are some exceptions for still waters if Bows are stocked, and the reason is that they do not spawn naturally there, and in many cases they cannot as they are triploids and unable to.

Should you catch a Brown trout during that time you cannot retain it.
As a rule the Browns will head into the rivers and creeks that run into those lakes and you annot fish there to start with.

In the case of other freshwater species there is a close season.  And you cannot fish for them during times that they spawn

Rivers,lakes and loughs are for the best part there maintain a natural density of self propogation so far as Browns are concerned as they are the indiginous species. They were introduced here in the late 1800s

I am well aware of the fine balance that a natural fishery has to have in order for it to produce acceptable numbers of fish that keep the angling public happy, as it were.

The fact that for the best part the majority of the trout waters you fish are relient on stock fish does not in any way change my way of thinking so far as fishing for trout when they are staged or in the act of spawning.
I will not and do not encourage that for these reasons, which cannot be argued with.

Some states here do close trout waters, others have further regulations.

The fact that there is no considered progeny has nothing to do with my reasoning either as we are dealing with two issues here.

In the first place it is at this time that there will be a collective number of the trophy fish within that body of water.
They have to go througth the process of shedding eggs and milt or they may die.
It requires a male to stimulate the female fish to shed, he in turn sheds milt  to impregnate those eggs.
If the substrate of the river bed, coupled with high levels of O2 and adequate water temperature are right then those eggs will hatch into alvins and some of those will survive if they have got that far, food base being available.

The fact that it is considred there is no survival is beside the point as what you are dealing with is the trophy fish that the system supports, and that is a resource that others may enjoy to catch.

There is no question that the harrasment of fish when fished for whilst staged on beds causes great mortality. Many of those fish are foul hooked, subject to regular stress of being caught over and over again, posed with for pictures, remain out of water for long periods, dropped,  to name a few things.
That is a fact.

I have seen redds here totally destroyed by wading anglers, not only the fish are gone, but due to the wading the substarte that the eggs are laid in is also destroyed.
Sure  they may well swim away only to die.  If you fish tail waters that are subject to regular flow rates that is not always evident as those fish are washed away downstream.

Browns will typically remain on the redds for a considerable  time after the eggs have been laid.

I have picked up  here on the White fish to 18lbs, dead, by the caused by angling pressure.
I recognise many of those fish as l often see them on a daily basis, on those reddds


Bull shoals dam way back was a sight to see. There would  be 100s of trophy Browns collected there.  They were subject to all manner of abuse and that caused the demise of those fish.
There was no other reason, ask Dave Whitlock about that one.

Now the Dam zone is a C and R and is closed from Nov 1st to End of Jan.

Even to day those numbers are not the same as the overall increased pressure on the fishery as a whole is way to high.
From both anglers and reduced factors in water quality and loss of food base.

The harvest and mortality is beyond belief.  If it were not for the 800,000 fish that are stocked the White river it would be a way lessor fishery, Unless the natural reproduction was allowed to take place.
And for that to happen ,the fish would have to be left alone.
Ironically there would still be a trout system as such, as there would be some natural survival, and the angling pressure would decline dramatically as fish would be way more difficult to catch.

The argument that it is not illegal has nothing to do with it. It is a personal choice of yours, as it is mine, which is simply this. 
I choose not to fish for those trout at the time when they are staged on a known spawning redd. Sure you may catch some as they are moving up stream to ward that zone, that cannot be denied, but it very much differs from standing on top of fish when you know they are in the process or pairing up, digging the redds and actually spawning.
Trout will contain eggs in July !!

And l do have a respect for nature as a whole and of course enjoy to hunt, in fact l owned a hunting operation at one time. But l did not shoot ducks while they were on a nest, and l did not kill deer when they were with fawns.

There are both written laws  and unwritten codes of ethical conduct in my book, and that is where the answer lies.

Holding a fish taken from spawning bed dripping with eggs, so far as l am concerned is of no merit to the angler in question.
Go catch that 10lb  fish at other times and l will generosly give you credit.

In the case of Pacific salmon that do not survive after spawn, in those rivers that they do there are regulations. Limited harvest allowed being one, but that also allows for sufficient fish to spawn for the future.

Some others such as the tributaries of the great lakes there is no acceptable survival as such.
But again we are dealing with a different issue.  Trout can survive if allowed to.


Davy.

[TWiles]

Here's my opinion:
I, too fish year round & have frequented several well known rivers....I have witnessed the controversy and clash of opinions about fishing to spawning fish.  I think the  biggest issue is HOW you fish to those more vulnerable trout, if you so choose.
Fishing the redds can really bring out some undesirable experiences that shouldn't be associated with flyfishing:
Most spawning shoals get really crowded, and immediate competition sets in to get the honey hole with the pod of nesting fish.  Anglers will camp out in one spot, never letting anyone else have a shot at the obvious cluster of fish that everyone is pursuing --it gets ugly when this happens...the friendliness of this sport is lost.

Soooo many fish get mishandled and overfought:  I've seen big hens squeezed to the point of dropping most of their eggs, large males kept out of the water for minutes to carry them up river to get a photo, and large fished beached on dry rock kicked by a boot to get it further onshore......I get so infuriated!!!! 

Many uneducated anglers wade out in the pale overturned rocks of a dugout redd not knowing or caring about the destruction they are causing.  I saw this happen 2 weeks ago by the island above Handicapp access on Norfork.  We need to inform these people that they are walking on eggs!

Lastly, many anglers get so relentless, that they put the fly over and over a big fish for hours until it's belly hooked or stuck by the tail (sometimes this is unavoidable)...many fish will have fly/dropper tandems stuck to them....If he doesn't bite in 15 minutes of casting and 5 fly changes, give the fish a break.

I enjoy fishing in the fall and winter; and I'm not embarrassed to say that I enjoy fishing for spawning trout.  Some of my best memories are Thanksgiving and Christmas breaks where my brother and I have caught those burnt orange, hook jawed beauties.  I believe most who are opposed to fishing redds are disgusted by the habits of irresponsible anglers who target them.

Here's my humble advice for this fall,
Respect the fish:
Fight them quickly (get downstream and keep a tight bend in the rod)....keep them in the water...handle them gently...have cameras out and ready.
Respect the river:
Don't wade anywhere near the redds.  Fish and move on (if you insist upon camping out in the good spot, welcome others to take a few casts..please).  I have never regretted sharing a few flies and swapping advice with people I meet while fishing.

Glad to find this site, and looking forward to meeting some of you guys on the water.

Travis

[MikeA]

First off I would like to say that I really respect your opinion on these matters Davy so please don’t take any thing I say as a personal attack. I’ll carry this information you posted with me for a long time. It will be playing in my head from now on anytime I spot a spawning shoal.

You brought up some excellent points concerning the mortality of fish on Redds. Considering where you live I can’t imagine what a Trout on a redd  below the C&R zone has to go through on a day to day basis. I have no doubt there is a high mortality when fish are being caught day in and day out.
I am a big fish kind of guy. I love fishing to larger fish. My two largest Browns both over ten pounds were caught while not in spawning mode. One was caught during a shad kill in the summer which is also known to congregate large numbers of Trophy fish into a relatively small area. Is that also considered unethical?

The temptation to fish when these extremely wary fish have dropped their guard is very strong. I’ll most likely continue to fish below the Redds. There are some very nice Trout, Rainbow and Browns, to be caught that are not directly on a Redd. However, I still say I am not any better then someone pulling fish directly off the top of a redd, at least that’s how I feel about it. Spawning fish are spawning fish are spawning fish. And so if I didn’t want to mess with them I should stay at home.
Like you said, in the UK you don’t have a choice because the season is closed. This is the kind of blanket policy that could get put in when too many people start screaming about fishing to spawning fish in a STOCKED river. A closed season would put a lot of good people who own resorts on the White out of a job and a place to live so that a few fish could lay eggs without being harassed. I hope it never comes to that. I think we should be careful what we wish for however, cause it just might come true! With a little understanding, and by teaching others what not to do and what the implications could be, then letting them decide for themselves how they want to fish is our best avenue. I don’t Hunt much anymore and I don’t watch football so a closed season would be hard for me to deal with.



Speaking of Dave Whitlock I like this article he wrote about the White. It’s hard to belive that the Browns were all but eliminated from that river at one time. http://flyfisherman.com/south/dwwhiteriver/


Hey Twiles welcome to the board. Where are you from.
You don't happen own a Wooldridge Jet boat do you? Good first post BTW!

[DavyWotton]

Mike,

I certainly do not consider when fishing a shad kill unethical, for at such a time, you are as such not fishing for trout over a shallow water zone and while they are in the process of spawning as such.

High water does to some extent protect those fish.

They will also be fish that are fit and strong and as a rule, able to deal with after CR survival .

Same here at BSD, l have had unreal days with shad kills, in fact l filmed a show for OLN some years ago related to that.

Fish even after they have spawned are very much distressed. At that time food intake is not of concern, they loose weight and condition, and it will not be till the following spring when natural food sources are abundant that those fish  build back weight and strength.

And sad to say many are again vulnerable. We loose many of our trophy fish here at that time.
As they move back down stream they tend to congregate and are at the mercy of being caught in large numbers and harvested.

But at least by that time thay have spawned and there is a very good chance that many of the progeny will survive for the future.

Some of the points that Travis raised, which l did not get into with my post, hit the nail on the head.
It is like a zoo here at times, crowds beating the shit out of fish one way or the other, never have l seen such in my life time fishing around the world.

I also think Mike, that if you are as such portraying your self as a professional guide that you should set a example. Education is one major factor so far as enhancing fisheries, with good ethical practice.

There are some guides here that well know better, but choose to take clients, stand them before fish on redds and then proceed to harass those fish in hope that they will stick a larger than avergage fish, most times foul hooked.
I have witnessed that very many times. Fishing with way larger hooks and more weight so the fly will track right on the river bed and get below the fish body.
Not in my book will that ever happen. And l will not encourage or fish my clients that way.

I for one would like to see the Norfork river, which l might add at this time is suffering big time from other issues such as low DO levels the build up of contaminents, pollution, bacterial and parasitical presence closed down.

To say the least that river is a shadow of its former self, not only are those fishing having to deal with the enviroment that they are living in, they are having to deal with the massive angling pressure.

As Dave wrote in that article, he has seen the demise of the White river system.
The sad part of all this is that the rivers could be back where thery were in the past, but that would take two things to happen.

Effective measures to deal with the effect of pollution and the concern of those who fish the system, that in order for fish to grow they have to survive.
I am not a purist in that sense of the word as l see not harm to harvest a acceptable number of fish to eat.

It is overall the results of how fish are caught and dealt with that is the problem.


Bull shoals dam is for me a very special place. There is for the entire White river system no other zone like it.

It is close to my home and l fish it often with clients and when l have free time for myself.

It is about the only place on the White river that  you stand a good chance of catching a 20ins plus Bow, a trophy Cutt, a large Brookie. There are trophy Browns here, but the are more so territorial and do spread out through the river system.

As a rule through the month of October l would expect to see a high percentage of Bows in the 2 to 5lb range and many over that.
I would also expect to see many Browns in the 5 to 10.
This past month l have fished that zone on a very regular basis, seen something like 500 fish caught, only one fish over 5, a handfull over 3  a few more in the 18 to 20s. The majority are in the 12 to 15.

The big fish are not there period, if they were we would have caught them as l know how to catch them. Neither have l seen them when the water levels have been down.

For many who visit to fish here few have any idea of the problems that exsist, if they can catch fish they are happy.
It is those of us who fish the rivers on a regular basis that see the decline of what could be a fishery beyond belief, which at one time it was.

So, if l am one of the few that chooses not to fish for fish, while they are spawning l can retain the satisfaction that l at least left them alone.
As a matter of interest Mike, none of my clients have any interest either to fish for those fish.

Davy.

[MikeA]

Davy do people harvest those large Browns for food? I don't harvest Browns at all and maybe a limit of Rainbows a year but usually not even that much. This year I didn't take any Trout to the knife. I prefer Yellowfin Tuna, of course there are groups out there telling me I shouldn't be eating them either.
Compared to you Davy I am still in the infancy stage as far as fly fishing and truly understanding Trout goes. As is usually is the case we get smarter as we mature so there is hope for me yet. 

This has been a very educational post and I only wish more people would step out of the closet and repent. 

Mike

[toddro]

I don't see a problem with fishing for trout that are on spawning runs, but to target redds is a bit tougher of a question.  Most of the place I have fished that support big spawning runs also have regulations in place to protect redds.  They'd just as soon shoot you up in Washington State if they caught you fishing redds - they take it seriously up there!  In places where there are no regs. it seems like a free-for-all as described in Ark. 

tough call...

[RonS]

Good discussion.

Like Mike, all of my life we tried to fish where the fish were. I never thought about catch and release before I started tournament fishing. It was catch and fry, all the time. Year round, and I remember cleaning many a fresh water fish full of eggs. Never gave it a second thought. Bass, crappie, cats, trout, whites, perch. If we caught it, we ate it.

Some of my favorite fishing is still crappie in the spring. When they run up the river looking for love, I'm sure to follow. Last spring I didn't even keep a crappie. I did go to Captain D's on the way home though. Is there a difference in catching bedding fish, depending on the species?

Though I have not fished for trout like you guys are discussing here, I did talk about it a week or two ago.  At that time I thought, and said out loud-

"So what??  You're putting them right back in the river. It's not like when I was fishing bass tournaments. I would catch a limit of big females and haul them 40 miles away from their bed to a weigh in." To me then, that seemed perfectly acceptable. I don't think that way today.  Now, Davy has raised some additional concerns that I'll have to think about.

Back in the beginning of my catch and fry days, I was a young boy and the population of this country had not yet reached 200 million people. Today we are well over 300 million. That's a lot more folks. Stands to reason there's a bunch more fishermen out there too, wanting to experience some of the same things I do.

I can remember going fishing and never seeing another fisherman. Now I get freaked out if I don't see another person, like maybe they all evacuated and I didn't get the memo.  I guess I bring up the population point to ask this. As we continue to pressure a resource, do we not need to adapt our care of that resource in order to preserve and protect it?

Course there is another side too. Everything alive on this earth is going to die. Just ask those fish I bought at Captain D's. I contributed to their premature death just as sure as the crappie I gutted with my own two hands.

Somebody please tell me, if the browns are spawning, why wouldn't they reproduce? Water levels? Water quality? What am I not understanding?

Having said all of that, I do know that I would love to observe these big trout go through the ritual. Until this discussion I was excited to go try to catch some. Now I'm not sure. Though I do still feel some desire to try it once, my daydream of big browns on the beds is not quite as enthusiasticly fueled as it was before this discussion began. More questions than answers.

[MikeA]

Glad it got you thinking Ron. That was the purpose of this post. Well that plus I wanted to be sure everyone knew where I stood and that I am fully aware of what's going on as that seemed to be in question. Also I wanted someone who I knew was from the other side of the fence to come over and give some educated feedback on the subject. 

There’s some good information here. After reading it you should be able to make an informed decision based on how YOU feel about it and not how someone else told you to feel, be it for or against.

What’s next subsurface bobber fishing vs Dry Fly only? 

[toddro]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061103/D8L59FQ00.html

somewhat in the realm of being topical to this discussion is a report that seafood may be a thing of the past in the next 50 years.  I never know what to think of these "scientific reports", but I suppose it not impossible...

[RonS]

"What’s next subsurface bobber fishing vs Dry Fly only?"

For me, if I can't figure out how to get more than 30 feet of fly line out where I want it on a consistant basis, it's going to be a fly suspended under a clear plastic bubble half filled with water and slung out there on my spinning rod.  And I don't mean just for smallies. I'm pretty sure a elk hair caddis will do just fine rigged like that.

[DavyWotton]

Ok, to answer further some of the points here.

Mike,
The avergae size of a Browns that is taken to the taxidermist is around 5lb.
I would say many others less than that are table fare.
Many of the baiT guides here do parctice CR with trophy fish, and some of the docks here will not allow guides who work for them to kill trophy fish, even Gastons to day has a practice for a CR program. Our guide association also have merit badges for trophy fish that anglers CR, so we are moving in the right direction.

Rons  post also hits the nail on the head. No longer are a few fishing. The overall increased pressure on our lakes and systems from all directions is immense.
Bull shoals and Norfork lakes are stocked with catfish, bass etc, why because the natural resources the lakes offer cannot provide for adequate natural reproduction, it is not just the effects of fish harvest by anglers it is the whole deal, water quality, loss of food base, adequate spawning sones and so on, not to mention the harvest of fish when they can have a chance to spawn.

I read a very long report a while ago related to the decline of ocean species. Get this, that there are more than 4 billion hooks used by long liners to harvest fish. And we have the effects of bio catch, which is fish that are below size, or not permitted and so on, all returned dead.
That does not include netting and other means of harvest.

Already those effects are being felt by persons who live out on islands that are dependant on fish as they migrate the oceans, they are no longer there to be caught.

The native American Indians harvested what they needed, nature could deal with the back up of that harvest.
They did not wipe out a Buffalo heard for the fun of it, sure the white man did.

From this day on no longer will they stock hatchery Bows, would  all the rivers support a population of fish, possibly, that is a proven fact in MT, they do not stock fish there, same also for other Salmonid systems.

Granted whirling disease did wipe many of those fish out, but there is certainly a big comeback, l spent two weeks back in MT this August, it was great fishing.

There is nothing to stop the natural propogation of a fish species if the water conditions, overal enviroment, food base allows for that.
And anglers leave em alone when they are going through that process.

You have to give em a chance to start with.

Do they not now days demand that bass are alive when weighed in, are most of them now returned alive. For the reason that the natural populations were being destroyed by killing fish, thats why they introduced live wells.

Forest Woods, would not have built a Bass boat empire if it were not for the tournament scene !! Ranger. And no fish to be caught.

If all anglers showed a greater concern instead of a acceptance that the state will provide the fish just to catch and kill,  then we would all benifit from enhanced fisheries, no doubt of that one.

Davy.