The perfect river boat quest.

[MikeA]

Well I have been doing a lot of R&D on river boats lately and I have met some great people who took time to help answer some questions. I just thought I would share some of the info I've gathered in case others are also interested. Here is an email and some posts from John Wilsons Arkansas board.

Yesterday I ordered the 2060 Supreme with a tunnel, two rod trays, Trolling motor block, SS hand Rails, and the 48" front deck. I'll be powering it with a Yamaha 40/30 Jet.
Here are some of teh specs.


Length  20'6" 
Width  48" 
Beam  63" 
Weight  565 lbs approx. 
Sides  18-1/2" 
Max H.P. Rating  25 H.P. 






Mike:
 
Caught your post on John's site. I have a 2060 with a 40/30 Yamaha jet. Started out with the 20 Mercury jet but someone came up to me on the Little Red  and offered me what I paid for it new since he found out they were discontinued. The Yamaha is very quiet and very fuel efficient. A friend of mine owns Ozark Angler here in Little Rock and Heber Springs. We went out on the Little Red several times...running dawn until late and it uses barely a half tank of gas. My boat is the one on the Supreme web site under the 2060 spec. page taken when it was being fitted for the cover. I ordered mine with three dry boxes. The lids are the only draw back...they are too small to get large things in the boxes even though the boxes themselves are big enough. Mine also has a 48 inch front deck and I have a 55 Min Kota with remote that I use to drift fish. If you are ever in Little Rock you are welcome to look at it.
 
Also the weeds and shad clogged my 20 mercury...and I haven't had my Yamaha stop up much at all. The boat runs wide open with 2 people in it a bit over 29 mph by my gps. I also had a cavitation plate (about 18 inches) made. It solved all spray back problems and I have not had it cavitate the first time in choppy water or or in a turn.

Follow up email
Mike:
 
The greatest information I have found came directly from Outboard Jets in California. When I switched from a 20 Mercury to the Yamaha 40/30 on my 2060 I had a setup problem because the local dealer didn't set the foot (intake of motor) high enough and I had a tremendous amount of drag and the spray coming back into the boat was intolerable. I took photos while running the boat (the area where the foot hits the water) and e-mailed them to Outboard Jets. They called right back a gave me better information on where and how high to mount the outboard. There recommendation was about 1.35 inches higher and the addition of a cavitation plate. Some people will recommend a "jack plate"  Resist this because it will move the outboard back 5-8 inches and cause further cavitation problems. It will also shift the weight of the engine further back.
 
Here are some places for very good information:
www.outboardjets.com    they make the all
 
www.snyderboats.com    great resource for repairing your jet
 
WWW.sonarsearch.com/jets     just a lot of good information
 
Enhancing Outboard Jet Performance by Chris Gorsuch  do a search by both title and author. This is the best information I found. The URL would be a bitch to type.
 
I have hit a lot of rocks going slow and have no dings on the bottom, just minor scratches. Going 50% or higher it just goes over things you just wouldn't think it could. I was drifting through a shoal and hit a rock transom first. It was a hard hit...looked worse than it actually was. About a 2x1 section of gel-coat was knocked off. An easy fix when I got home. I repair all my fiberglass and gel-coat. Buffed it out and it doesn't look bad at all. Another scratch from the outside of the trailer while loading the boat in heavy current. Don't ask. I just put these protective strips on the bunk brackets and solved the problem.
 
I ordered my boat from Midland Marine in Mountain Home. Good enough people and they know what they are doing with jets. My boat was ordered with the 20 Mercury. The mounting specs in the literature from Mercury and Yamaha show little difference in mounting height. But there is. My transom is 20 inches. It probably needs to be 21.5  As it is my bracket has about an inch and a half space between the top of the transom and the top of the bracket. I was bothered by it and took it by Supreme one day while I was up fishing. They told me not to worry about it.
 
The only thing I would change would be bigger lids on the dry boxes and front deck. There is an amazing amount of room to walk around. I owned an AFF before this. It had great boxes but only had 12 inches of space between them to walk through. Over the years I have looked at "guide boats" and made mental notes of what they like or don't like since they make a living in them. On this boat I have made a lot of minor modifications. I also took out the factory wiring harness which was 16 or 18 gauge and put in 6 gauge at the recommendation of Min Kota. Something about the length of the boat and loosing voltage. I also got the deluxe trailer for the bigger tires.
 
I have tried to show the before and after of the cavitation plate by including these pictures. Believe it or not the water coming from the tunnel was hitting the large round assembly and causing water to spray back into the boat and also causing drag. The faster I went the more it would pull the boat down.
 
I rarely go faster than 50-60%  It is just getting on full plane with 2 people at about 40% and I see no need to go any faster. Wide open it runs like a "raped ape" and much too fast for me. People are always talking about the flat bottoms and jets..."sliding".  I honestly have never experienced it happen.
 
I also made a tool kit addition for this outboard. Long nose pliers, punch, hammer all to address rocks that may become lodged in the fins (not a good thing).
 
Hope this all helps a bit and isn't boring. Call if any questions or coming to town.
 

[MikeA]

Here are some posts from the Arkansas board.

Mike,

Lynn Hicks now owns and runs Supreme Boats. You can configure the boat however you like. Don't know a damn thing about the jets except that I hate them.....

Jimmy T.
 
Grumpy
Member
Posts: 124
(10/21/06 5:24 am)
Reply   Re: First post! Question about Supreme Boats.
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 Hey JT, How ya been doing & when did Al give up the reigns of Supreme, i kinda liked the 'ol fart

Grumpy
 
Jimmy T
Moderator
Posts: 3562
(10/21/06 6:10 pm)
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   Re: First post! Question about Supreme Boats.
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 July 1st but Al still comes in in the mornings and plays conductor. Good to see ya Grumpy. One day we will meet and get to fish together....... 


Jimmy T.
 
Grumpy
Member
Posts: 125
(10/22/06 4:45 am)
Reply   Re: First post! Question about Supreme Boats.
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 yep, one of these days, it'll be a blast.

Grumpy
 
David Bolin
Member
Posts: 13
(10/22/06 9:19 pm)
Reply   Re: First post! Question about Supreme Boats.
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 Mike,

I have a 2000 series with with a jet. The boat first then, then the jet... The 2000 is perfect for low water fishing on the Little Red. It's very stable and requires very little water to clear the shoals when plained out (4 to 8 inches depending on how much weight I'm carrying). The only down side is sucking leaves into the jet in the fall. If the river is covered with leaves, might as well leave the boat at home. As I recall the 2070 is 6 inches wider and about an inch taller than my boat. Also the motor mounts in the middle of the transom. Otherwise the boats are functionally the same.

Now a few pros and cons on the jet. My 25/20 2 stroke Mercury is roughly the equivalent of a 15hp prop plained out. It's very sluggish out of the hole compared to a prop and louder. I have several friends running 25/20 2 strokes on 2070s. They push the 2070 about the same as my 2000 even though the 2070 is heavier. The additiional displacement of the 2070 seems to compensate for the additional weight. To fish the LR in low water, a prop is usless in the areas that I fish. There just isn't enough water in the shoals to get through them without banging up a prop. It's the jet or stay home.

I haven't run a Supreme with a Yahama 4 stroke 40/30, but I've seen several of them on 2070s this fall. They are quiet compared to mine. They probably make less noise than the 2 cycle props running wide open. There have been other 40 and 50 jets on the river that are extremely loud. Sounds like a tractor pull when they run them wide open. I've see guides wearing ear protection running those motors. Hopefully common sense will eventually prevail in those cases...get a reasonably quiet motor. The 40/30 seems to get up on top of the water much faster than my boat. It's probably comparable to a 25hp prop.

A jet is significantly less responsive than an equivalent prop at low speeds. I spent several hours in Jimmy Ts boat a couple weeks ago. He can run his prop through the shoals on the White at very low speeds like a well tuned sports car. You can't do that with a jet. He can push his boat up into a shoal (where there's enough water to keep the prop out of the rocks), put it in casting positon and drop the anchor very efficiently. I could do the same thing with my jet, but their wouldn't be any fish there to cast to by the time I blew a jet wash across them a couple times trying to get into position. What I can do with my jet is plane out the boat and fly across that same shoal in a matter of seconds. I just can't ease through it looking for fish. I use the jet to get to a start point on the river and then use a trolling motor to positon the boat in a long drift (a mile or two).

I use a remote control trolling motor so it can be controlled from anywhere in the boat. I modified the lock down on the trolling motor to be able to release it in the down positon to drift across shallow shoals backwards (transom first). I still have sideways control and the motor just bounces up if it bumps a rock in the shoal. I just lock it back down as soon as the trolling motor will clear all the rocks. So instead of easing up into a shoal with a prop, I back through it with a trolling motor.

Hope that helps,

David
 
 Davyfly
Norfork Moderator
Posts: 652
(10/23/06 6:49 am)
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ezSupporter

   Re: First post! Question about Supreme Boats.
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 Mike.

Boats. l own 2 a Shawnee and a custom JS.
Wide bottomed boats are way more stable than the narrow versions for sure. 48ins.
Many things are a consideration, at least from a guiding point of view.
Weight of clients, number of persons in the boat, how does that boat track on drift lines, ease of movement and so on.
How doe'sthat boat perform when dealing with both high and high water flows etc.

Jets, same as Jimmy, l hate them, for most of the reasons that Dave wrote.
There are very few places l cannot navigate on the White river when it is low, the few l cannot, at least up stream really do's not matter. You can also run a shuttle if need be, which would be a rare thing for me to do.
In the worst case you can always get out and pull the boat up stream.

Props have way more advantage when you are working with adverse wind and have to correct with small spurts boat position, they simply allow for very fast action of navigation and position of your boat.

You will be surprised when you know how, run a prop in very shallow water and navigate around very small chutes that you have to work with.
Just got to know the river in that case.

I have 3 motors, a 10 hp for the Buffalo, as that is the regs there. A 15 which l use most of the time and a 25 for high water, that really does move a boat along, but l dislike it for working on very shallow water, ok for down stream runs but not always the best for running up shallow water shoals etc.

If the 4 stroke motors had the same shallow water drive as the 2st -15 l would buy one but they do not, the 10hp does.
Other downside for the 4s is weight factor, makes no difference for good water levels but it does when running low water.
I borrowed one , and could see a very big difference with it compared to my 2s-15

I am not familiar with your river Mike so you would also have to take that into consideration.
Down stream floats is one thing, having to run up stream when you have low water is another.


Mike a friend of mine won a new Supream boat, l understand that he intends to sell it as he already has a new Shawnee.
I can give you his contact number if you like.

Davy.







 
Mike Anderson
Member
Posts: 3
(10/24/06 7:50 am)
Reply | Edit   Re: First post! Question about Supreme Boats.
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 Thanks for the comments everyone!
I am very experienced with navigating a tiller through skinny water, I’ve been doing it for many years. I also owned several different hull configurations including glass and aluminum. However, I’m getting tired of pulling my boat up fast and long shoals. I'm worn out by the time I get to where I want to fish. If I’m drifting I’ll be using my remote control trolling motor not the outboard so slow speed control is not a real big issue with me. Typically I like to run way up and float back down, or float down and wait for the water to hit so I can get back up. The jet affords me to start back up as soon as I see the first sign of generation. I don’t intend to run on plane across shallow shoals where waders are fishing, period! I will only use my jet where it won’t ruin the fishing for others.


??
How well do the boats track since they don’t’ have a keel of any kind?

Does the trolling motor operate well mounted where the mount is on the new Supremes (not centered)?

How well does the bottom hold up being dragged across gravel bars? Are the bottoms good and solid on these boats?

What about AFF boats? I have seen a few of them and they look pretty good and are wider as well. I think the guy who builds them is hard to get in contact with.


Davy
Where can I find a Picture of a Shawnee? Are those the green boats that Gastons uses?

Yes I would like the contact info of the guy who has a Supreme for sale.


Thanks again
Mike Anderson



 
David Bolin
Member
Posts: 18
(10/24/06 6:43 pm)
Reply   Re: First post! Question about Supreme Boats.
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 Tracking: I can't get up enough speed with my 25/20 to worry about tracking. The 40/30 might be a different story.

Trolling motor mount: Works fine for me mounted on one side. You wouldn't have a platform to stand on if it was mounted in the middle. I wish I didn't need the thing at all. I any accessory that might snag a fly line or cause someone to fall out of the boat. I'd eliminate the seats, trolling motor, the strap on the rear storage compartment and the outboard motor if I could to have a snag free casting platform. Hmm...sounds like a drift boat. I'll keep the trolling motor for now.

Bottom: Mine is scratched up after 5 years of hard running. I fill any exposed fiberglass fibers in those scratches with epoxy. The bottom did in the middle just behind the live wells. That was caused by high centering on rocks and rocking it off (not a very bright idea). I patched it with a fiberglass kit from Lowes. No permanent damage. The bottom should last a lifetime with proper use and repair.

David
 
 Davyfly
Norfork Moderator
Posts: 658
(10/25/06 6:02 am)
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ezSupporter

   Re: First post! Question about Supreme Boats.
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 Mike,

AFF boats are not produced now days, they are some what large and very heavy compared to the regular boats we use here.

Wear and tear. I run about 200 plus days a year or more on the rivers here.
And in the case of dealing with fly fishing clients you are often working in shallow water zones.
You will suffer wear and tear there is no doubt if that one, and if we have low water flows that of course adds to that.

Dragging the boat across gravel bars, not something l care to do to be honest, that is hard work.
I did that one time on the Norfork, from the dam to the confluence, never again, but it was the only way l would know myself the worth of that one.
Found that one out in a hurry, not a option.

If you have enough water under the boat to float it no problem.

You will after time wear much of the gel coat off at certain points. and probably also have some deeper damage to the hull.

About every two years l will turn my boats over, and do what is needed to re-build the loss of gel coat and the places that have obvious wear down.

You need to have that boat inside to do that, or at least wait till we have days of at least 65f or more, first to make sure that the hull is 100% dry and also so the curing process takes place. Must have the boat turned up side down as it is very difficult to make a real neat job otherwise.
More or less l will sand down the entire botton. Re-fill any large scrapes and scratches.
I use a number of flberglass products that build back strength, not just a epoxy mix as such.
Once that is all done, again the whole deal is sanded down before the final gel coat is applied.
Looks like new again.

The outer edges of the hull often see damage from rock structure, here l add a reinforcment along the leading edges.

Fact l do some boat repair work for others when l have the time.

Hulls are produced different ways, depending on the manufacturer. The shape is one thing and also how they flex is another.
The Shawnee co use cedar strips and a solid glass structure others differ with a two layer system.

This is also one further reason why l do noy like jets as you are more likely to hit structure at faster speeds, you would not run a prop fast in zone that you know you are likely to hit the prop.

I know of two persons here on the White who tore holes in the hull from running fast with jets over shallow shoals.

Accept wear and tear as a given Mike if you are going to use that boat on a regular basis over shallow bottoms.

DW






 
Mike Anderson
Member
Posts: 4
(10/26/06 5:55 am)
Reply | Edit   Re: First post! Question about Supreme Boats.
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 I am down to two choices one is an aluminum jon boat, the other a Supreme or similar glass boat. Would someone explain why most of the boats on the White are Glass. I would think the bottom of an aluminum boat would withstand the dragging, etc, better then glass. I've been through several boats the last few years and I am trying to avoid buying the wrong boat again. The rivers I fish for the most part are exactly like the White.

Thanks everyone you've been a great help!!!!
Mike



 
Grumpy
Member
Posts: 126
(10/26/06 6:14 am)
Reply   Re: First post! Question about Supreme Boats.
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 Man, i wish i never had sold mine.
Mike you know the answer, glass slides, aluminum sticks.

Grumpy
 
 Davyfly
Norfork Moderator
Posts: 665
(10/26/06 4:42 pm)
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ezSupporter

   Re: First post! Question about Supreme Boats.
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 Mike,

Glass is easy to repair, AL you got to get it welded.
They do not make ally boats in the same profile as the glass boats we use.
And they do not have the same type of flat bottomed hull, if so l have never see one as yet l would use here.
My boats are 21ft in length.
Can accomodate 2 persons fly fishing easy, and 3 if they take care when casting.

Davy


 
stinnetti
Member
Posts: 590
(10/26/06 7:16 pm)
Reply   Re: First post! Question about Supreme Boats.
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 Mike,

Consider a drift boat ! I certainly reccomend them, not real fast but a great boat to fish out of. By the way I do have a motor on mine.

But if I were going to buy a jon boat for the White it would be a 20' Supreme w/ a 15hp merc

Steve
Springcreekoutfitter.net
 

[David L. Darnell]

Mike,

I run a 16 x 36" Aluminum Jon down here on the Elk, did have a Mud Buddy 12hp Hyper longtail, sold it and am now looking at the new 23hp short tail lite.

I was on the White the first week of this month and we used those 20' x 42" boats, I have been wondering all along why we don't see them over our way, talked to Grumpy and he said he owned one and still misses it.

Talked to a dealer out in Cotter area, said he knew of one mudmotor being used. I'd like to try one out with a "shallow water drive"


I owned a Gheenoe for maybe 8 months, was working day light to after dark and got it in the water once, told my wife that I was going to sell it that I'd never live on the river and get to use it, sold it and guess what, in less than a year I had 20 acres on the river. She still wants a Riverhawk B-52. I'd like to ride one on the river, only had mine out on Tims Ford lake, like to see how they go over the gravel bars compared to my Jon.

[MikeA]

Welcome to the board Woodsman!

The B60 that I had would float over some veerrry skinny water. I could release the trolling motor,  tilt it at a 45 degree angle and run it over about 4" I think. The blades would be turning partially out of the water yet the boat was still floating... And this is with a 15 hp four stroke and two grown men in it.

I've said before the Riverhawk and Gheenoe boats are an engineering marvel. The stability is what really sells those things and the shallow water is just an added bonus.


I've seen a few Supreme style boats around here but not many. If its anything like the RiverHawk I'll be selling them every time I gas up or put in. People just seem to be interested in something they haven't seen before.

You're a lucky man to have 20 acres on the Elk. I bet that river holds some nice surprises. How far down are you?

[RonS]

Hey Woodsman, good to see you over here. Wish you were off work on Sundays, or I was off during the week. We'd float that Elk of yours and you could see for yourself.

Yesterday there were 3 of us in the boat.  We're talking probably an average of 200 each. It would still float in 4 inches. I was thinking about you yesterday and your mud motor. That might be just the ticket!

[David L. Darnell]

I agree, yes we are very blessed to live on the river much less have 20 acres, can't see a light at night from my yard.,  we are 25.5 river miles downstream from the dam.

My oldest son and I were floating back in the summer, about 5 miles below the house, we were after Rock Bass and he landed a nice beautiful colored 18" Rainbow. My uncle trot lines around our place and has over the past 3 years caught 2 nice bows on his trot line. I tell people that we have trout down this way but don't come down here targeting them. If you want trout go way up the river.

[adamtn]

woodsman, sounds like you are from the area i grew up if you're talking about the elk river. I grew up in lincoln county and fished the elk around fayetteville when i was younger before i caught the trout bug. i used to fish a lot around molino rd and harms areas.

[MikeA]

Nice, I really like that area. I used to chase Stripers around Estill Springs several years ago, is that close to where you are?

A friend of mine just bought a house very close to the Dam and that subdivision’s like a giant party all summer long. Everybody rides around on golf carts and four wheelers with a mixed drink or a beer in one hand and steering with the other. During the winter most everybody packs up and moves back to their winter homes and he has the whole place to himself. The scenery is some of the best TN has to offer, I could spend days just riding around taking it all in. We took a ride up to Sewanee last time I was there, now that is one heck of a school! I sure wish I could get my daughters in there on a full scholarship!

[David L. Darnell]

Sounds like you are speaking of Cline Ridge, the subdivison up on top of the ridge just around from the dam. I remember when we use to call crows up there and it was just a cedar thicket.

Estill Springs is on the tail end of the lake, I live on the other side of the dam, in a small community called Kelso.

Lot of money up on top of Sewanee Mountain for sure, good school but very, very liberial.

If I were going to school, I'd pick University of Montana:)

[MikeA]

10 years later and I'm about to retire the Supreme. I ordered a new one today. 48" front and rear decks, and rod trays on both sides. Other than that I wouldn't have changed a thing from the old one.  Went with the 207XP jet tunnel.

[David L. Darnell]

You won't be sorry, awesome boat, I ran mine over a 3" mud flat, around a quarter mile, never touched bottom, motor spitting clear water 

[MikeA]

That's good to hear David. I have no complaints whatsoever about the shallow running ability of my current boat. I honestly don't know how it can go in any less. My big concern will be how shallow will it float with no power. That to me is almost more important. Floating over a questionable rapid produces much less damage than wide open. Floating by behind fellow anglers on the gravel flats without making too much disturbance is also important. Even though no matter how much shit I go through to not disturb them, some will still be pissy about it...

[David L. Darnell]

floats on top of the water

takes off on plane

my only complaint with these boats are, they float so dang shallow when Carp fishing on the lakes, wind blows you around like a dry leaf on the water

[MikeA]

Yea there's that. You can use a stake out though. 

[Phil Landry]

Mike,

When is your new one supposed to be ready?  I have a new one coming soon too from them.