Trophy Fishing TN Forum - Caney Fork Trout Fly Fishing - Caney Fork Trout Guide
Boating => Shallow Water River Boats and Jet Boats.. => Topic started by: jkilday4 on April 02, 2013, 09:43:10 AM
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Preoccupied with possession...again. 'You go back - Jack - Do It Again, wheels spinnin' around and around'
Some would say I'm obsessed with fishing, tackle, gear, flies...pretty much.
I'm now going to take the kayak plunge. :-\ I've seen Dave in action on his SUP; I really like the light weight and minimalist approach but will be running through some class I & II's & don't see that as a fit for a novice 'yaker. I will use it on the Nolichucky, Watauga & South Holston, etc.
I saw Mike's Jackson Coosa mod thread; what are pros/cons of it vs others? I was considering a Freedom Hawk 14 I believe it was a couple years ago; it had a little transom for a trolling motor & the retractable stabilizers. Has to be a LOT heavier.
I went to Jackson Kayak's site and saw the new Kilroy; it's 12'5" long vs Coosa at 11'2".
http://jacksonkayak.com/jk-kayaks/kayak-fishing/2013-kilroy/
http://jacksonkayak.com/jk-kayaks/kayak-fishing/coosa/
Wondering pros/cons of kayak length: longer kayak tracks better but is more hassle to store/launch etc? Shorter kayak easier to maneuver?
Weights are comparable. 'High Lo' seating of Coosa I guess means you can adjust seat height.
I will definitely want to be able to stand up and fish. A used kayak in decent condition would be preferred.
Any tips you all can share on type of kayak, length, etc would be great.
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If I can make a suggestion...
Don't buy one this spring.
You're welcome to come down and spend a day or two fishing off my SUP (I have an extra), or I can drag them up your way. Go fish with Mike -- he has an extra Coosa (or did the last time I checked). Somebody on here has to have a Freedom Chicken, and a Kiljoy, and an Old Tuna. Maybe even a Hobo. Fish off as many different boats as you can... and then try the three boats that have come out in the interim calling themselves the "ultimate fishing kayak." Just as with big boats, there's a lot of hype out there about kayaks, and everybody has their own opinion on why theirs is the best and everyone else's sucks. Your on-the-water experience in a given boat should be the only thing that matters to you when it comes to buying a boat.
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Definitely good advice, Dave - thanks. The amount of time that it takes to make an informed decision is always a necessary thorn in the side... Before I get into test-driving, I'm going to try to do as much homework in general on what folks have experienced, reviews, etc. I probably shouldn't buy one this spring - I think I'll go change into my pants with more fire-retardent pockets at lunch.
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Yeah, most people would benefit by trying several out before buying.
The kilroy is essentially a cuda hull made with a canoe upper deck. Works well for fly-fishing but I think the waters you mentioned will put too much splash into the boat.
The coosa would be my choice for the waters that you mentioned, but there are new models coming out all the time. (It is also what I currently own). If you want to fish down my way, I would be glad to meet up and fish. I can always borrow my brother's Cuda (and we can switch boats midway too). If you were on slightly calmer waters, I think I would look at the Cruise (vs the Cuda) as it has less stuff to hang a fly line on.
I know of a Wilderness System 135, Tarpon 120, and trailer for sale. I also know of a used Coosa too.
The high seat is important, if you plan to stand. For me it is very difficult to stand from a standard seat location. The high seat is also nice cause you stay a lot drier when elevated, a nice feature especially in late fall-spring.
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Yes, listen to the above responses, try before you buy.
From what yuo mentioned a Cuda 12, Ride 135, Ride 115 would fit your needs. All 3 are capable of standing on of course depending on your physical abilities, good for rougher waters i.e. scuppers. All 3 paddle well. The Freedom Hawk I've heard is slow, and heavy, I had a Coosa for two years, but wanted something faster, lower profile in the water so it wasn't as negatively affected by the wind, something that didn't spin as bad on lakes, and ponds. If you plan on being in rougher waters, and plan to stand I would stay away from a Sit Inside, I like the sit ontops because it gives me room to move around, stand, and I have all my gear acessable while being able to tan my legs :o.
I've been fishing from a Commander 120 for the past several months and really liking it, but I don't think a hybrid would fit your needs. I've also been fishing recently from a Tarpon 120, but standing in that kayak is not an option, or not for me anyway.
This upcomming weekend Saturday April 13th is the Cumberland River Paddlefest above the Old Hickory Dam. Wilderness Systems, and Jackson will have boats to demo, and I'm sure other manufacturers will be there . Come on out and try a kayak.
Jeremy
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Been thinking hard about the Jackson Coosa but am wondering about these long slack sections that I will have to paddle through. Spoke with Jackson Kayak this morning. For slack water paddling plus the fact that I'll be going through class I's mainly & the occasional class II, the Cuda 12 was recommended. Cuda 12 also less affected by wind than the Coosa (and seems like the wind is ALWAYS blowing upstream on rivers). Still researching. Thanks for all the input so far.
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Hey,
jkilday4, if you are in the Nashville area. This Saturday from 0900-1800 is the Cumberland River Paddlefest.
I know Jackson, Wilderness Systems, and Perception Sport will have kayaks to demo. I know Wilderness Systems will have more than 10 different kayaks, and I would think Jackson will have there fleet out there also along with the Superfishal.
867 Burnett Road Old Hickory, TN 37138
Jeremy
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John the way you and low head dams get along might want to look at these...
http://www.creaturecraft.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKMdDtVlCf4
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LOL. Evidenced by Sunday's shinanagins, I'm a LONG way from getting my certification to even think about getting one of those.
I was able to take a Coosa out yesterday evening for a spin. The Noli is running about 1.5-2.5x as much water as I would normally think about fishing it. I walked around the rapid above Kinser Bridge & there was considerable current through the slower section between rapids. The craft got up through it without too much effort. I'm sure there are probably kayaks that will move through longer slack sections better, but it should handle higher waters like Chestoa/Erwin/Embreeville better, dare I say the Gorge?
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h292/jkilday4/C3E7C005-CFB3-48AB-A91E-F93E95D7BF57-661-000000E23AE44E61_zps50827d9e.jpg)
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h292/jkilday4/166981A0-040B-41C5-B1EF-99201E948B1C-661-000000E18BE823E4_zpsa038b15b.jpg)
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h292/jkilday4/A7FEB20A-8064-4A4D-AAA7-DE040F45D2DF-661-000000E248EF64D0_zps3c4b5aea.jpg)
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h292/jkilday4/86BBF686-770B-42CB-88C1-F0666CF68329-661-000000E1A7EFA3C9_zps3915a7ff.jpg)
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A sit in will paddle better, faster, tracking, etc, having tried everything but a board, the SOT get's my vote.
Grumpy
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The Coosa is a great kayak for floating a river. As for paddling when I want to get somewhere on a river the Tarpon 120 is my choice. You cannot stand like in the Coosa, but you sit lower to the water so it still feels very stable under you. It's much narrower, tracks better, dosen't push water, dosen't catch as much wind due to the bow sitting lower in the water. In the hull capacity is not as large, but adequate. You may want to also check out the Cuda 12, it looks like a promising vessel, sure it would be faster than the Coosa and move through the slack water much better than the Coosa. I would paddle as many as you can, and find out what works best for your needs.
Jeremy
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The cosa IMPO is the best jackson has to offer. If I was going to go with something a bit better for paddling I would go for a perception. The one opportunity for cosa is you cant hang your legs off the side to slow down your drift when the water is high. With that being said, if I had that jack I would buy the cosa for 800.00 or less (I do not see the r.o.i. for any more). My opinion, get stronger and buy a boat you can stand up in enjoy the benefits of having a good boat of jackson without giving up the option of standing up. Not many people know how awesome it is to see a snook chase your fly while standing in a yack.
Pal
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Hey Jeremy I have a question for a seasoned paddler like you. On another Sit in kayak I've paddled, when I'm going through a fast section and want to eddy out I just give one hard stroke on the opposite side and spin the boat into the eddy. No problem. In the Coosa what I've found is that if you try that you'll find yourself under water in no time flat. The only way I've found to deal with fast water in a coosa is to stay straight until it slows. The reverse currents below fast riffles is also a good place to roll a coosa. I've learned to feel it and hear it now and can avoid flipping for the most part but I'd love to know why this is happening. To me it seems like the built in rudder is catching the current and making the vessel turn faster then the operator can prepare for. Any recommendation on how to eddy out in a coosa??
Sent from my iPhone.
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Hey Jeremy I have a question for a seasoned paddler like you. On another Sit in kayak I've paddled, when I'm going through a fast section and want to eddy out I just give one hard stroke on the opposite side and spin the boat into the eddy. No problem. In the Coosa what I've found is that if you try that you'll find yourself under water in no time flat. The only way I've found to deal with fast water in a coosa is to stay straight until it slows. The reverse currents below fast riffles is also a good place to roll a coosa. I've learned to feel it and hear it now and can avoid flipping for the most part but I'd love to know why this is happening. To me it seems like the built in rudder is catching the current and making the vessel turn faster then the operator can prepare for. Any recommendation on how to eddy out in a coosa??
Sent from my iPhone.
Mike, I think you answered your own question here with Sit In Kayak. A Sit In handles much more differently than a SOT, and especially a Sit On Top with a seat 8+ inches above the hull, so you are actually sitting a good 16-18" above the water, and if you are built like me I'm not a pyramid type, more like a V with a little more weight above the belt, and I'm not small. All that weight that high above the water and something is going to happen.
About design, and how a kayak, or anyother watercraft works Bfish is a member here and I'm looking for him to chime in.
I just get in/on as many different as I can and fish the crap out of them. I've never paddled whitewater, and only have 4 years experience on kayaks. I consider myself a fisherman first, and then kayaker way, way down the line. I just use a kayak to get to the fish I'm persuing, it's just a tool for me and away to get away from the crowds.
Jeremy
Jeremy
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Hey Jeremy I have a question for a seasoned paddler like you. On another Sit in kayak I've paddled, when I'm going through a fast section and want to eddy out I just give one hard stroke on the opposite side and spin the boat into the eddy. No problem. In the Coosa what I've found is that if you try that you'll find yourself under water in no time flat. The only way I've found to deal with fast water in a coosa is to stay straight until it slows. The reverse currents below fast riffles is also a good place to roll a coosa. I've learned to feel it and hear it now and can avoid flipping for the most part but I'd love to know why this is happening. To me it seems like the built in rudder is catching the current and making the vessel turn faster then the operator can prepare for. Any recommendation on how to eddy out in a coosa??
Sent from my iPhone.
Mike, I noticed the very same thing on my first outting in my Coosa. As a teenager I paddled some whitewater in our Bluehole canoe and my C-1 which we built from fiberglass in my backyard. This brings back some memories. ;D Back to the Coosa. When I went to eddy out I just about took a swim. :o It sure caught me off guard.
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Yea it makes you scared as hell on a long class II's like some of the ones on Emory... You better not get scared halfway through.
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The first time on faster water was in a Tarpon 160i, and that was real interesting taking a class 2 sideways, and a 2' plus drop in a 16' kayak. The 4 others I was with couldn't believe I made it through without a yardsale. Now that was pucker factor.
Soon after that I bought a Coosa, it had just come out and it was the "greatest" boat on the market. The class II's were no longer a problem as long I was in the low position. Since I don't make many trips over to East Tenness now I got rid of the Coosa, and if I plan on a rough water outing just take the Tarpon 120. I can't stand, but it's a kayak I can use in any water, and makes a good loaner for someone with no or very little experience.
Jeremy
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... Any recommendation on how to eddy out in a coosa?? ...
Short answer is like you would in a whitewater boat.
I agree with what Jeremy says about sitting in the high position. So below I am talking about in the low position.
The Coosa hull has almost no keel and has lots of rocker (bow to stern banana shape), so it will need to slide into the turn. While most rec. boats (sink and sot) have fairly strong keel lines and minimum rocker.
If you are directly heading downstream and you want to eddy out behind a boulder on your left. You will give a small sweeping stroke on your right, in order to stick your bow into the eddy and to give some speed to cross the eddy line (where the downstream and reverse eddy current meet, ie seam). Next you will plant your left blade into the water, nearly vertical (this is the point you pivot about). You hull should be tilted so that the right (starboard) side is deeper in the water. At this point you should be in the eddy and facing back upstream (and kayak hull should now be level). If you continue to flex your wrist on the pivot and finish off with front stroke (while lowering the left (port) side), you can continue back out into the current.
The eddy out "stroke" is called duffek. Might want to utube it, cause it much easier to see than type up (whitewater slalom). I know you didn't ask about the stroke, but it illustrates the hip movement needed. Think of it as running along, grabbing a flag pole, and spinning yourself around to continue back the direction you started from.
With a strongly keeled boat (say Tarpon/Manta Ray/Pescadors/Redfish clones), the duffek just can't be done. Without getting too technical, the keel helps you power into the eddy, but you keep cruising through it (or requires you to make bunches of sweep strokes once in the eddy to face back up stream). The goal in this type hull is keep it level. On real strong eddylines, too strong of keel will snap you upside down too. To avoid, you lean into the current (directly opposite of what you do in a whitewater boat or river canoe).
So in the Coosa, when in doubt, slightly lean on the edge the direction the current is going. The lack of keel (along with tall sides) is why the Coosa gets blown around in the wind.
PS the Emory system has some of the strong eddylines in the state (with Nolichucky gorge a close second), IMO.
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Great explanation Bfish, thank you for taking the time to explain. I need to get on the river (when it's warmer) and play around with this technique.
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Great explaination Bfish. I really need to take some paddling instruction. My stroke is good and efficient, but as for reading water, and navigating rapids I just squeeze my butt cheeks together, and paddle like hell.
Jeremy
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Great explaination Bfish. I really need to take some paddling instruction. My stroke is good and efficient, but as for reading water, and navigating rapids I just squeeze my butt cheeks together, and paddle like hell.
Just come fish with me, I will get you on some pucker water. :D
Edit to add:
Invite is open to anyone
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When's the best time? Days of week? You can PM me if you want. I'm in the market for a new paddle, the Adventure Technology is getting worn. Looking for a Werner, I think they may hold up a little better to rocks, and the abuse. 240cm is just to long for my stroke also, I bury the entire blade and 3" up on the grip. Thinking 230 or maybe 225.
Jeremy
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I went and picked up Mike's Coosa this past Saturday after trying a neighbor's out and researching them online a good bit. I got a couple of those Ratchet Ropes from Lowe's and it's hanging in my shed - pulled it straight up off the floor, so it's not hanging at a side angle; surely this method of hanging is ok? I had a friend question me on how to properly store it; I do know that the one I borrowed's underside (about a third way back from bow point) was caved in & he said it was due to his setting it on sawhorses & cushions. He hopes inserting a basketball into the hull and heating it up will return it to original form...
Good dialogue on the eddy-out maneuver - rook here's got a lot to learn & hopefully not drown. Bfish, I youtube'd the duffek stroke - good stuff, thanks again.
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As for storage, I've built stands out of PVC, and they are working great. Here's a blog I wrote about the stand http://kayakfishingblog.com/2012/01/kayak-stand-build/ (http://kayakfishingblog.com/2012/01/kayak-stand-build/)
These stands are strong enough that I can place two kayaks on top of each other and place on one stand.
In the garage I had before I built hoists into the rafters with 4 supporting points on each kayak, and pulleys. This also worked well, but much more time consuming on the build, and more expensive.
With your hoist system you are using as long as you are not just supporting it from the front and rear I think it would be ok, or the handles. I like at least 3 supporting points, and prefer 4.
As with the Coosa with the bowed underside. There should be a piece of black foam inside, it should be located just in front of the cup holder and wedged in there to keep the form of the hull. I had to add more support to Sarah's because her Coosa was doing the same thing. I cut large pool noodles to the length I needed and smashed then in the hull between the underside of the kayak and the deck, from the inside of the kayak, I accessed this area through the front hatch. Then I used Lexell to secure the pool noodles. We noticed when the front/underside of the Coosa was bowed in it pushed more water than normal and didn't paddle efficiently.
This could be caused from missing support, over tightening straps, heat making the hull softer, or other issues I'm not aware of.
Jeremy
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As for storage, I've built stands out of PVC, and they are working great. Here's a blog I wrote about the stand http://kayakfishingblog.com/2012/01/kayak-stand-build/ (http://kayakfishingblog.com/2012/01/kayak-stand-build/)
These stands are strong enough that I can place two kayaks on top of each other and place on one stand.
In the garage I had before I built hoists into the rafters with 4 supporting points on each kayak, and pulleys. This also worked well, but much more time consuming on the build, and more expensive.
With your hoist system you are using as long as you are not just supporting it from the front and rear I think it would be ok, or the handles. I like at least 3 supporting points, and prefer 4.
As with the Coosa with the bowed underside. There should be a piece of black foam inside, it should be located just in front of the cup holder and wedged in there to keep the form of the hull. I had to add more support to Sarah's because her Coosa was doing the same thing. I cut large pool noodles to the length I needed and smashed then in the hull between the underside of the kayak and the deck, from the inside of the kayak, I accessed this area through the front hatch. Then I used Lexell to secure the pool noodles. We noticed when the front/underside of the Coosa was bowed in it pushed more water than normal and didn't paddle efficiently.
This could be caused from missing support, over tightening straps, heat making the hull softer, or other issues I'm not aware of.
Jeremy
Those are nice homemade stands, Jeremy. If I had the space, I would probably copy that.
I am hoisting up at front and rear only - at the handles. This is the way my folks hoist their Hobies too. I guess you're of the opinion that this would weaken the handles over time?
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You might want to contact Jackson and see if you can get some of the new new solid (hook Proof) handles.
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When's the best time? Days of week?
Tuesdays, but other weekdays work too (wife is retail and has some of them off on every other schedule).
John, the best way to store is on edge (ie sideways) with a wide strap (or padded with a foam noodle) in a loop/sling.
If not, stand it on end, in corner. On edge, on the floor would another option. Keeping it lifted by the handles supposedly can cause the screw to wallow out a larger hole.
(http://www.sherrikayaks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/IMGP1998-300x225.jpg)
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Those are nice homemade stands, Jeremy. If I had the space, I would probably copy that.
I am hoisting up at front and rear only - at the handles. This is the way my folks hoist their Hobies too. I guess you're of the opinion that this would weaken the handles over time?
The stands fold up. As for hoisting by the handles, that's a lot of weight on such a small contact point for long periods at a time. Like Bfish stated wide straps to give more surface area support is better, and I come in a few feet on the bow and stern to have more surface area on the kayak touched by the straps also.
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Although I know nothing about yaks per se I do know a thing or two about plastic and how it behaves. As I understand the problem you guys are describing with deformation occurring during storage this is likely a phenomenon known as creep which is exhibited by all plastics to varying degrees. Basically it's just continued deformation over time with no increase in load as the molecules realign themselves to relieve residual stresses in the part. As it happens HDPE (what yaks are made of) is one of the most creep prone thermoplastics in existence. To minimize the extent to which this occurs you should reduce the span between supports and support as much of the surface as possible - e.g. wider straps, more straps etc. It would be a bit of a pain I suppose but one option for an elevated storage approach might be to make a small cradle like device from 2x4's or whatever that would support the yak from front to rear along the entire length of it's hull at least on these two lines and then attach the lifting straps to the cradle/runners. I picturing something like a really scaled down version of the bunks on a boat trailer. More work for sure but it would/should stop the deformation while in storage problem.
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Although I know nothing about yaks per se I do know a thing or two about plastic and how it behaves. As I understand the problem you guys are describing with deformation occurring during storage this is likely a phenomenon known as creep which is exhibited by all plastics to varying degrees. Basically it's just continued deformation over time with no increase in load as the molecules realign themselves to relieve residual stresses in the part. As it happens HDPE (what yaks are made of) is one of the most creep prone thermoplastics in existence. To minimize the extent to which this occurs you should reduce the span between supports and support as much of the surface as possible - e.g. wider straps, more straps etc. It would be a bit of a pain I suppose but one option for an elevated storage approach might be to make a small cradle like device from 2x4's or whatever that would support the yak from front to rear along the entire length of it's hull at least on these two lines and then attach the lifting straps to the cradle/runners. I picturing something like a really scaled down version of the bunks on a boat trailer. More work for sure but it would/should stop the deformation while in storage problem.
Tim,
Love to read someone who understands the technology we are working with and how it behaves.
We have such a wealth of knowledge from so many industries on this board!
Steve
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I use Ocean Kayak prowler angler 13 on lakes & rivers. Also use a Riverhawk with center console & love both. Kayak works well on lakes when I don't want to hook up the boat.