High water Trout Fishing.

[MikeA]

I mostly fish Streamers in this situation but I will on occasion toss a big fat Dry. And on occasion I'll catch a decent Trout by accident. Either way is not going to be a numbers day but could result in a Trophy Trout.  I am of course talking about fishing from a boat with a fly rod. What I would like to know is how to have a numbers day under generation. Davy if you read this, I would be interested to know some of your techniques for fishing the flow. Maybe you can share with us a little on the type of setup, what type/size flies, equipment, etc.  There doesn’t seem to be a lot of information about this style of fishing out there. I guess it has a lot to do with the fact that most fly fishermen go home when the flow starts, at least around here. The White and Cumberland are two rivers I’ve been on that are exceptions, but a big majority of those boats are spin fishermen who BTW are catching plenty of fish…  Anybody else got any input on this subject?

[DavyWotton]

Mike,

I assume that you are taking about a tail water situation, at the time they run water.
If you can give me some idea of what you are dealing with depth, cfs etc.
If that is so let me know and l will post back here with some ways of how to deal with that.


One other point, can we have a post reply added to the site.

Davy

[MikeA]

Ok, the River that most people around here fish is the Caney Fork and its a considerably smaller Tailwater then the White.  One Generator is about 3500 CFS without Sluicing. Although there are exceptions, more then one generator 7000+ is usually just too much water for me to feel safe in this relatively narrow river. The Depth change varies but a recent example of downstream elevation is 475 at 0 CFS to 489 at 3500 CFS. There is limited to no wading at all during 1 generator and most all the bars are a few feet under water. There are several deep sections throughout the river. You can pretty much assume that all fishing during generation has to be done from a boat. I included a few pics of the river under generation to give you an idea of the river in question.
Pics removed to speed upload of thread
I also fish the Cumberland and its flow should be pretty close to the White but the Cumberland overall is deeper then the White, at least as best I can recall.

I don’t know exactly what you mean by. "One other point, can we have a post reply added to the site."

If the reply button is not showing up you are not logged in??
If I open it up to unregistered users I fear that I might have to deal with too much unpleasantness. Please clarify.

Looking foward for you reply.

Mike

[Glenn Hawkins]

Mike, I am glad to see this topic addressed.  I know Davy fly fishes this type of condition on the White River.  I looking forward to the responses.

[DavyWotton]

OK, guys high water.

Here on the White and Norfork, high water for most guys is when they can no longer wade the shoals and riffles.
Two units on at Norfork will do that. The White will differ, dpending on how far you are from the dam. So two on at the dam with a given cfs and depth of say 4ft, will not be same at Calico, 4ft if rise. That due to how the  volume of water is displaced by the surface area and depth of the river.

High water does a number of things as we know, increases depth and speed of flow. But it also changes many things other than that. It creats new zones that fish can now find a food base and  zones that they can avoid direct flows of fast water.

So look at it like this.

High water caused by flood run off which turns the river into a muddy trashy mess, go home if l were you.
Unless you are close to a dam zone, there you may well still find clean water conditions, which is the case here on the AR rivers.

Once that starts to settle down, the river levels starts to drop and the water clears up, then fishing can be good.
Fish will be hungry after a period of high water by that cause.

When water is released from a dam it does many things.
It introduces organisims into the river from the lake above, zoo-plankton for one, possibly small bait fish and in some cases other forms of invertibrates.
It may also change both water temperature in the river and also the amount of dissolved oxygen, both of those may at times  may adversley affect how fish will feed or not.
That factor is often seasonal related.

As that rise takes place it will cause organisms such as scuds, sowbugs, caddis larva in the river to be dislodged, and bring about very good feeding activity from the fish, on that rise.
It will do the same also to terrestrial bugs found along the shore lines, be that spiders, beetles, hoppers, mice, worms etc.

So in many ways a rise of water can often produce first class fishing, and that is certainly the case here for the White and Norfork.

However, the further you are down stream from the dam, then the water may be unfishable as that rise will cause trash to be washed from the shore lines, leaves, dead timber, mud, silt etc.
That rise may also dislodge moss, and other trash from the bed of the river.
Here on the White, sand, silt and gravel will also be moved.

If that rise of water remains consistent for a time, then the river will clean up as all trash will of course be pushed way down stream.

If that river is say subject to frequent rises of water that are in the same ball park,  say 4 ft, then the continual process of that may allow for cleaner water lower down the system.

So, all of these factors l will consider to make the choice of where l will fish along say the 100 miles of the White river.
The Norfork due to its short length as a rule will remain reasonably clean with the two units there open full bore, unless it is during the fall or winter when falling and washed off leaves are a problem.
Or water from the lake above is bad.

oK,  we know that a rise of water changes many things.
It will cause the fish to move around and look for comfort zones.

I can tell you from my experience here that knowing the substrate of the river when it is low is one big plus factor. I  know there will be certain zones l will find fish in high water situations.
I may not be able to see in the water those zones but l know from shore line markers such as trees, rocks etc where they are,
Then you have also the obvious ones such as back waters, eddys, creeks that run into the river,  behind islands, all of these are zones fish will look for in high water flows.
Then you will have locations along the shorlines, may be over grass banks.

In other words knowing the river is very important.

Fishing from bank side locations may still be very productive if you can of course access to the river, as many fish will be found close to those zones, for sure.
Other than that you go afloat.
High water can be dangerous, and it is not always easy to control a boat and fish by your self,  you are way better off to have a fishing buddy and take turns to fish while the other takes care of the boat.
Wearing a life support is always a good choice !!

So how do you go about fishing high water flows.

I will be back here in a while with that .

All for now,  Davy.

[DavyWotton]

Back again.

No 1.  Know the river and its structure.
No 2.  Know the depth you are fishing over.
No 3.  Know that you have, if nymph fishing, both weight and length.
No 4. Use flies that the fish can see.
No 5  Use the right line to deal with the choice of fishing.


These are the primary foundations of dealing with high water.

No 1,  As my previous post, very imortant. Fish will as a rule seek out given locations, and will be found there on a regular basis when high water flows take place, given at that time the depth of that water rise.
Now the only way you are going to know that is either by catching fish there your self or knowing that some others also do.
If you have figured that one your self, l will tell you to shut up and say nothing !!!

No 2, Depth. There are a couple of ways to do that. One is to know the exact height,  more or less or a object that is visual, at low water and then when the water has risen.
I also will stick my fly rod down to see if l can touch bottom, from a boat, while drifting.
The White is most time clear water for med flow, but not so when real high water is running.
I am not familiar with your rivers at the time of generations so they may differ.
You can also if you have it use a depth finder, and if not a weighted plum line, either way it is important to know this for dead drift techniques.

No 4.  There may be times that in the slack eddy and back water, or off main line current seams fish will rise to the bugs that have been pushed into those zones, that is common for many places here on the White river when high water is running.
In that case l use combinations of dry, wet, soft hackles, emergers ect for those fish. as a rule with a dry line. You may well encounter good surface activity even though there is a large amount of surface trash on teh water, the fish will rise in between that.  Not the easiest of places to fish, but hey the fish are there.

I have also had great surface fishing over very deep water with small flies at such times when there has been a caddis or a mayfly emergence.

Fishing into shore lines with large streamers, and l mean large at time, 4 ins or more can be deadly for for a big trophy fish. Fished on the surface or at depth.
Here at Bull shoals dam l will work with on a dry line my shad fly patterns and some other versions, l have caught and so have many of my clients some great fish this way, even though there are no shad at that time. If a fish sees the fly the rigth way, he may well come and nail it, you never know.

Deep water nymph rigs, fish larger flies and those they can see, typically San Juan worms, stone fly nymphs such as bitch creek, black stones etc.
Some guys like to use eggs and jigs.
You can also fish dead drift flies like wooly buggers, white marabou streamers, if they see it you have every chance they will take it

But that is not always  the case. If water is colored then, yes, choices say or red, pink, SJ worms, eggs etc.
If the water is clean and clear, then l will also use scuds, sowbugs, hares ear and flies of that nature.

Botton line is, the fish has to see your fly.
Fish will naturally feed on small organisims, that may be all they have. High water does not stop fish feeding !! unless it is trashed up real bad or in flood stages.


No 5. High water for me does not include the use of a 3wt outfit, forget that. Do not handicap your self with the wrong rod and line out fit.


As a rule l will use rods of 9 to 10ft with at least a 5wt or more, at times 7 and may be 8, that related to the line and means of fishing at that time.

Running shore lines, casting to from a boat.

There are times that a dry line works well, particularly for Browns, late evening to dark, with surface or close to fished flies.
I will use a dry line when fishing surface tecniques at the dam zones, and also down stream also for more mid water fishing.


Sink tips are great lines also to work off shore lines if you have the right one. They do vary in sink rate and also the length of that sink tip section. I prefer a 10ft at least sinking section and at least a class 2 sink rate or more.  I use a 7wt line, as that gives me more options for fly size, either small or very large or with added weight such as tungsten cone heads.  I light weight line does restrict this option.

I also use at times a intermediate line, with a 1 to 2 ips rate. That is one of my favorite line to use, again a 6, if not a 7 wt line.

Faster full sink lines for high water also have a place. Here again you need the rod to deal with such lines, at least a 7 wt for me. Again gives me the option for fly size and weight choices, but also you do need some beef when you hook a big fish down deep.

Bottom line here is use the right line to present the fly and one that allows you options for both size and weight of fly, as that can make a great deal of difference at times, believe me.

If there is one other factor that does relate to fishing flies such as streamers, it is your ability to be able to cast , 30 ft does not cover much water, 60 to 80ft casts way more.
And you may if you are fishing too close to the shorline spook the fish out down stream of you before they see the fly, by boat drift.

In the case of fishing with streamers for sub surface fished flies, l do not bother with tapered leaders as such, there is no point as you are not looking for exact turnover as you would for a dry fly.
You are not fishing dead drift and also you will be stripping the fly, so that pulls the line/leader and fly in line.

So, as a rule for any fishing other than dry line by this means l just use a straight section from the fly line of anything from 6 to 12 lb mono. That l use from bulk spools, and l do like P-line for that, there are others out there that would be well ok.
Leader length would vary from  4 to 8ft as a rule for this.

For dry line surface work that does differ as l may well use a total leader length of up to 15ft at times, more so when l am fishing bait fish patterns. The added length does allow for the fly to animate more natural on the surface and that can be very inportant.
In this case l will be fishing these flies dead drift with some added movement.
The added length also keeps the fly well away from the fly line as often fish will come from deep water and take that fly.

In this case l will use a tapered leader to about a 10lb tip and add additional to that with what l need by length and BS.
If l am after the big boys here at the dam it may well be in the 10lb region as l know very well what a big fish can do when he has the high water to help him out.

If l am using dry line with say flies l am working into shorelines, then l would not use long leaders, hard to throw a large fly or heavy fly acurately this way. Also as a rule l am setting that fly right on the shore line and hoping to pull a fish within a few yards of it, which is generally the case here. That may be with floating or sunk flies.
As a rule at least a 6wt line,  7 being more versatile for larger and weighty flies.


No 3. Nymph--Dead drift.

Simply the bottom line is that the fly is close to the river bed. In 10ft of water a 10ft leader is no use unless you have a ton of weight added.

Long rods are mandatory for me for this reason. If you are fishing in 10 ft of water, your indicator has to be more than 10ft from the fly, as a rule.
Short rods are difficult to work with in this case.
Remember we are not looking for surface presentations here, we are looking for a means to get a fly down to depth and keep it there .

Back in a while, have some visitors.


All for now,

Davy















 

[DavyWotton]

So how do we deal with depth and speed when dead drifting.

Hope fully you have taking some notice too my previous posts.

As a rule, but not always fish will be close to the river bed a this time, or at least they will look for comfort zones out of the direct flow of water.

In order to dead drift at depth you have to have  WL, weight and length. That is from the indicator.
Remember we are not dealing with finness, and surface presentations here.
And not chuck and duck either.

Quetion... At what position should l place the indicator
Answer.....As close to the end of the fly line as you wish. In this case it does not matter. Other methods l would say other wise.
Remember that the indicator will be a point of stop at the rod tip .
Below that you may well have a long length of leader/tippet.

There does of course come a point that the depth of water is way over, one that you really cannot deal with by dead drift.

Look for water that is less than 10ft, more like 8 or less, it is way easier to deal with this depth.

When drifting in a boat as a rule that will also move at the same pace as the water surface unless wind changes that. Up stream retards, down stream increases, cross winds can be a bitch at times to deal with.

There may also of course be some surface water movement within seams that can also have a bearing on this.

It is important that the boat is controlled in such a way as the down stream drift does not cause the fly line to be dragged off line, or that it runs over the line, as this will aggrivate a good continous presentation.
In the case of myself l use a motor and l use that as a means to deal with this, same also for a drift boat with oars.

Aside from the rig up, l consider this to be very important, for if this factor is not handled , it matters not what you have done so far as setting up your tackle for dead drift.

Boat control is of number 1 importance in my book. The longer you can maintain a good drift then so the fly will remain at the productive zone.
Also keep the fly in the water and avoid pull out and re-casts, a very common mistake, t does not matter that the fly be down stream from the boat aways ,as long as you are not retarding the drift, holding it back, if you do then the fly will rise high in the water coloum.

The deal is to read the water, as there may well be some difference say from drifting 40 ft off a shorline and trying to fish dead drift 10ft from that shorline.
At that time you need to figure out. Do l need to make a way up stream presentation of the boat position or can l cast directly across to that shorline and maintain with the boat drift the same speed of drift.

I can of course read that, and l will tell my clients where l wish them to make that initial cast.

OK, rigging up.

I cannot be exact here, unless l was there with you on the water.
But as a good guide line go with this.

If you look at the articles page you will see how l set my leader system up using Amnesia.
To that l add the continous length of tippet l wish to use, and the finer that diameter is, for the better, as it will allow for the fly to sink way faster.
So in consequence of the 4/5/6 x, 5 l use most of the time, F/carbon.

The Amnesia section is the one l set the indicator on, never  on the addtion of the tippet for high water fishing. I adjust length wise and weight wise that below the Amnesia to tippet connection.

Weight is added as a rule around 10 ins from the fly. I also at this point add the section for the fly to the tippet and the reason why is that the knot stops the shot moving down to the fly, as this will often happen when you use fine tippet material and shot sizes of 1/BB/AA.
You do not want to compress that shot too hard either as that can reduce the strength of the tippet.

So assume we are dealing with water 8ft in depth.

I will set the indicator 2ft from the fly line. That leaves me 3ft of Amnesia. To that l will add around 7ft of 5x to that 1ft of 5x.
To that l will add as a start 1 BB above 1ft knot.  The fly then to the 1ft section.

Amnesia is as a rule visible below the indicator and you will see the relative angle that is is. Is it looking like it is pointing diretly down or more so at a level  up stream.
Remember it is the surface drift that determines drift speed.
If you see the Amnesia more or less in a straigh line down, the odds are you fly will also be way down there, if it is not then the fly may not be.
So to deal with that you add weight. It does not matter that the weight drags the bottom as the downstream drift caused from the fly line will pull it along, on the other hand if you are fishing over bad structure you do not want to hang up on a regular basis.
As a rule the faster the water this happens less so.

Even so that is something you have to live with fishing this way. unless you know the zone you are fishing like the back of your hand.

There is if you like a fine balance here not enough or too much weight.
I would rather have too much, than not enough.

If l was to say this l will not be far wrong from the truth.
The failure to catch fish when fishing high water is that there is insufficient weight to get the fly down, and that the leader length is too short.

Second to that is not maintaining a long enough drift for that to happen, both angler, boat drift or both may well be the problem here.

One other interesting factor is this. I have watched 100s of fish interecept and take a fly fished in high water, here at Bull shoals dam the water is as a rule very clear and with a good over head light condition you can see well.

I have seen the fish, turn around downstream and take the fly, swim at all angles to intercept and take the fly.
You have no choice in how you can set the hook other than raise the rod when you see the indicator move.
You cannot alter the relative angle of hook set.  All you do is to take up the tension to the fly and hope that you did it in such a time as the fish is hooked and not missed.

One other point l forgot to add is this.
When fishing high water, you can speed up the hook set by hand strip at the same time as you raise the rod, more or less like you were making a single haul.


All for now,

Davy.

[MikeA]

Wow, absolutely great stuff as usual Davy!

I read and hear soo much buzz about the San Juan Worm but I have never caught much of anything on them. When I tie mine I use the micro chenille and no weight except for a few IPW’s I tied a few days ago with a Tungsten bead for the body.


1.   Do you use larger chenille for your worms or do you also use the micro? 
2.   How long do you make the worm and what size hook do you use?
3.   Do you as a rule use larger flies when nymphing in the flow?
4.   Do you prefer to fish the rise or the fall?
5.   Do you usually catch bigger fish during generation? Other then the spawn, I don’t often see the big Browns in low water. 
6.   Ever hooked one of those monster Carp doing this?

As a side note I heard they banned using drag chains on the White. Is this true? That would be kinda bitter sweet I guess. I used to use drag chains and I liked it but I am also aware of what they do to aquatic life on the river bottom. I now use a Minn Kota remote control Trolling motor and I think it is a much easier solution. 

Once this is wrapped up I'll put it together on another page as an article so we can refer back to it from time to time.


Thanks BIG TIME!
Mike

[DavyWotton]

Mike.

I use ultra chenille, standard size, that is 2mm.
Size of worm 1.1/4 to 1.1/2 ins works best.

Hooks,  l have used many in the past but l do like the TMC 3761, size 14.  There are a couple of hooks also l use from Partridge but you might find those hard to get here.
I see no advantage to use curved shank hooks Mike.

The color can make a big difference at times,  if you go with, red, orange, light and dark tan and pink, you should be good with that.

I have used worms also with beads, hard to say if that are any better than those without.

I will post some images of some variations that l have used at a later date ok.

No, l will not always use larger flies,  depends on water clarity. If clear l will often use sow bugs and scuds from 14 to 18 hook size.
Hares ear,prince nymph can also be good.
And l have often used soft hackles, various, size 12 and 14.

But l personally do not use eggs, l know some guys choose to do that. And also small jigs.

Rise or fall. As a rule a rise can be good if it is not pushing trash with it, at least the early stages of that rise.
What we try to do is follow that rise as it moves down stream.
If l am at the dam l will stick it out there as a rule.

If there after a mean flow is maintained, then the fish will settle down to that after a period of time.
Falling water can be a waste of time, but l have also known times it has been good.
I think what happens here is that the fish sense the change and are more concerned with looking for safe zones, when that fall does start to settle then they will often feed real well.

Big fish, overall the answer here would be yes when generation starts. Low water does make the larger fish way more wary thats for sure.
I will not fish for trout that are pre or post spawn while in collective known zones that they do so.
But you will of course catch fish while they are moving up stream to those zones, in the case of Browns anytime from mid September onward. Bows have no real select period of time these days due to the changes in genetics from hatcheries.

Mike,  those big browns will be there thats for sure. Many of the big fish here will be found in shallow water zones and close to shore lines. At this time of the year running shore lines last hour of light and into dark can be killer fishing.

No never hooked a carp on the White, l did one time catch a very big drum at the dam and also a number of Walleye.
But, yes have caught carp fly rod fishing other places.

I am not aware of the fact that they banned drag chains. You cannot use them on the Norfork, that has been a reg for a number of years.

Yes, l do use chains,  l do not believe Mike that they are detremental to the river bed.  Hoards of waders is way worse, and so is low water, so far as killing aquatic vegetation and causing food source to be depleted.
Fish growth is low at that time, and harvest of fish way greater.

The interesting thing here on the White is that high water is good for the river. It reduces big time the harvest of fish, fish grow fast and the entire body of water is overall so much the better for it.

All for now,

Davy

[Caneybuff]

Thanks Mike and Davy.. great thread.  Just back from fishing four Montana rivers over the past few days, some at low flow, a couple at high fast water.  Davy's suggested fishing techniques for high fast water sound exactly like what our two guides were having us do out there. { Was a great trip by the way.  Got to meet several of Scott Waldie's closest friends, characters from his three books, and the boo boys formerly with R L Winston, and it was more like being part of a nice story than reality.  Like fishing in a moving post-card scene most of the time.. a couple times with Griz and Moose in the forest close-by (at least the warning signs said so, and I did walk upon a huge splatter of blood where some creature had been killed by some thing on the rocks by the river.  That made me listen a lot more to the sounds behind me in the trees.}   Anyway, thanks guys for the posts on a great topic.  Only thing I'd add, (might have been mentioned and I just failed to catch it) was rod/line weight...  the fast water on the Madison would have made something larger than my five weight/floating line rig desirable when fishing sub surface I think.  Although, a better fisherman might not think so.

[DavyWotton]

Caneybuff,

Yes, l did say  that 3wt outfits are not the game here.

If you have a 5 wt with good fast action ok, as a rule l will go for a 6 and at times a 7.  Sage, SP-XP, TFO Ticr-Professional 6wt all good rods here.
Surface presentation is not a consideration.
heavier wt lines work better when you are dealing with added weight, and also wind.
A faster action rod also allows for speedy hook sets as when a fly is way down there you need that to take place.

That is not to say you cannot fish with 5/6x because you can, the depth factor alone does help to reduce if you like the shock effect, unlike surface fishing when you are way more direct to you fly.

The fish does not know what you are fishing with !!

Pleased you had a good trip to MT, l will be out there also 2 weeks in August my self.

All for now,  Davy.

PP, we have high water here on the White as of now.

[MikeA]

Glad to hear you and Ron had a good time Dan. One of these days I hope to get out there myself.

Davy I tried hard Fri but didn't have any fish on high water. Of course it was just a tough day all together. I'm not giving up till I make this work.

The dog days are here and heavy generation is expected. One good thing is the Shad should start coming thru the Dam any day if they aren't already. This usually gets the big boys excited.

[DavyWotton]

Mike,

Are you able to know what the water quality at generation times,  DO levels.
This can often be the reason for no fish activity if you are close to the dam.

And for sure some shad will as a rule shake em up.

Davy.