Thread discoloration

[TimM]

After having done several practice wraps using old blanks I decided to repair a rod where the epoxy on all the wraps had cracked. This is a heavy action, 7'6" graphite casting rod.

This is what the wraps all looked like to start:



I removed all windings and old epoxy finishing up with a denatured alcohol wipe down before starting the new wraps. I used standard Guidebrod size "a" thread. The main wrap was done with gold thread with a metallic red accent wrap at the ends.  This is what they looked like before finishing them (except the camera skewed all the colors a bit in this shot):




I then applied three coats of color preserver followed by FC 2 part epoxy. Some of the wraps came out fine colorwise, and some came out looking like they had no color preserver on them and others (most) came out with these weird dark spots and streaks on them. What the heck is that??? I remember reading a thread on one of the rod building forums about a light blue thread that discolored, perhaps due to something getting on the thread while it was still on the spool or even from the persons hand while wrapping. Is that what this is? I'm planning to remove them all and start over but would like to know what in the heck caused this before then. I can always use other colors (maybe black/red or red/yellow) or just pull a bunch of thread off the top of the spool and throw it away before starting over. Thoughts? Suggestions?

Here are examples of the results I described above:

Looks like insufficient color preserver coverage to me:







Note on the last one that one wrap on this guide looks okay color wise while the other is not.

These are the discolorations I'm asking about:







TIA for any insight on what caused these discolorations!

Tim

[dleo6446]

Well, I have seen that a number of times whenever I have used color preserver.  Moreso with silkl, than with NCP.  i don't know what color preserver you used but what I have found with them is that if I dont uses at lease 5 or 6 coats of the off the shelf preservers, you get bleed...and that is what you have there.  The bottom line is that the epoxy bleeds through and discolors those fibres that are not well protected...

For that very reason, I don't use color preservers persay....If you want to get a reall good color preservation, go to Hobby Lobby and look in the model airplane department and pick up a small bottle of Airoplane dope!!  Pure unadultrated lacquor!  It may slighlt darken some threads but that I like about that over standard color preservers is the penetration.  Gudebrod, and most of the color preservers do not penetrate the threads and create adhesion between the thread and the rod, and that is an open invitation for a failure right when you need it the least.  Direct coating with your varnish of choice, or with the epoxy topcoating penetrates the threads and bonds the wrap, guide and anything else that may be in there to the blank.  That is what you want it to do.  Quite frankly, I prefer the translucent wraps to those that have been preserved, It means that you have to be more careful in guide foot preparation, and in alignment so that everything keeps it's symmetry, but thats no big deal.

[TimM]

Thanks Leo. 

I used Gudebrod's CP on this rod.  I did notice that the CP was VERY viscous and wondered about penetration then. Heck it was almost like rubber cement consistency.   Would warming the CP a bit by putting the bottle in a bowl of hot water, or perhaps thinning it with acetone promote better penetration and lessen the likelihood of this happening?  I seem to also remember reading something about humidity being related to this but I could be wrong about that.  Since I did this Saturday when it was raining like crazy the humidity was certainly high! ;-)

[dleo6446]

hey BD, think I would give the Aero Gloss a shot as the color preserver.  It is only like $4.00 for a bottle of it.  If you do thin the Gudebrod, use Alcohol instead of the acetone.  i think the acetone may breakdown the solids too much.

another thing you may want to do if you use the Gudebrod again, make the first coat thicker and apply it while it is on your drying motor if you have one. give it a really good thick coat and let it dry, then apply 3 or 4 more coats until you have an almost flat surface, an cannot see the thread ridges.  Another thing that happens is that if you dont fill the "tunnel" created on either side of the guide foot, you leave the door open for the epoxy to penetrate and cause the same thing again. 

[MikeA]

Ahhh a CP problem, I told you that stuff was nothing but trouble. My biggest issues with CP are the problem Leo mentioned where it prevents the Finish from bonding to the blank and guide feet and the blotching it leaves.
I built a spinning rod and used CP once. The first problem was the wraps clouding up when they got wet. Then the guides started working loose. It was obvious when I removed the wraps that there wasn't any penetration of finish past the thread. I failed to fill the tunnel with finish and the end result was total failure. However if I hadn’t used CP none of that would have been a problem because the finish would have penetrated the threads and bonded everything together.

I understand that it’s possible to build a good rod using CP but it is defiantly not as fool proof as not using it. I'll never have a bottle of CP on my bench again and some real good builders I've talked to have said the same.

 
Mike

[TimM]

  Another thing that happens is that if you dont fill the "tunnel" created on either side of the guide foot, you leave the door open for the epoxy to penetrate and cause the same thing again. 

Now that's a good point and something I hadn't thought of before! It may well be a significant part of the problem here since I made a point of getting some epoxy up under the guide and into those tunnels.

You know, I'm really perplexed as to how so many knowledgeable rod builders can have such disparate opinions about something which, to this rank novice, seems like a pretty basic part of the process...CP.  If you read through the threads on the rodbuilding.org site you'll find that the moderator of that board (don't remember the name...Tom something I think) and a number of other frequent posters there take the position that CP interfering with the epoxy bonding to the rod and locking the threads in place is a myth. I, of course, don't know that it is or isn't. What I can say though is that when I started getting serious about this project and dug out some spinning rods I wrapped literally about 30 years ago, have caught many fish with, did use CP on the guides and they  are still firmly attached, there is no cracking around the guide feet and the colors look just like they did when I wrapped the rods.  I dunno what to make of it all...yes clearly CP complicates matters but if you don't want the translucent appearance to your wraps what choice do you have?

As for the Gudebrod brand...it was just the first one I ran across. Is the Aerogloss available locally around Nashville?

Thanks for the input guys.

[MikeA]

A guy on that board Randy Putter I think, summed it up pretty good when he said "there are many things that can result from using CP, only one of them is good".
 

[TimM]

I'd have to agree that he summed it up pretty well there Mike.

While all things esthetic are subjective matters of personal preference, if a builder wants to retain the original colors of the thread in his wraps and/or for them to be opaque and hence readily visible what choice does he have other than CP? NCP thread? Without CP  the "thread art" disappears on the rod along with the many hours spent creating it thereby negating one of the reasons to build your own rods....or at least that's how it seems to me. 

[MikeA]

For Thread art I think CP is a necessary evil. I use metallic threads to give mine a custom look but for the most part I don't incorporate much thread art to my rods. I'm the kind of guy who thinks a plain rod with top shelf components is a work of art in itself. I am also a little hard on my rods so I don't spend alot of time laboring on them.  However, I also understand other builders need to step it up a notch.

[TimM]

Certainly a top notch blank with top of the line hardware built just the way you like it is a work of art in itself regardless of any esthetic considerations. I just like the customization that thread art adds to the mix.  Going to have to keep working at this CP thingy and figure out a reliable way to work around the spotting issue. (naahhhh it's not like a bazillion builders far more talented than I will ever be have spent any time working on this problem.... )

[dleo6446]

Here is a shot of a wrap that has had the Aero Gloss used as a CP on it.  THe differenc is that it penetrates the threads and sets up a bond that the Gudebrod won't do....