Larry Dahlberg on Meltn hill..you gotta see the TV piece

[bee]

I posted this elsewhere on here but it should have been here for you muskie boys to notice it....the HUNT FOR BIG FISH show most recent episode is something you ought ot see....in the process of opening the kimona on a great fishery he does make what appear to be strong argeuments bout how the fishery is being managed (or mismanaged).  He rips TWRA a new one.   I saw it this weekend .    Pretty astonishing fishing action and a good insight of an example of what appears to be very very poor fisheries managment in our local waters.  You need to see it if you can find it.. 

[MikeA]

I posted a long winded post on the original thread but deleted it. In short it said that nothing TWRA has done or not done will hurt a fishery as much as filming it on national TV, blogging it, posting specific info on it, writing articles about it, etc, etc. I'm amazed at all the wanna be biologist who suddenly know more about managing a fishery then anyone else because they know how to cast a fishing rod. Not taking anything away from Larry or whoever he fished with. I'm sure it was a good show.

[TWiles]

A national format intended to educate the public is a double edge sword.  If you attempt to cast shame on the bait fishers deephooking and killing the abundant muskies in the Hothole...you lead the masses who don't care to your vulnerable treasued sportfish.  It would be different if regulations were in place to prevent angling in this location, but since it is allowed, you can only expect more traffic after those fish.
Billy Davis is an excellent angler with all the right intentions to protect his home fishery.  Hopefully TWRA will regulate the musky abuse at this unique winter holding location.

[bd]

I didn't see it and probably won't.  Can somebody give some inkling of WHY he said the fisheries management is so poor?

Without seeing the episode, I might note in passing that muskie fishing had gotten virtually zero attention in this State until just a few years ago - people hardly ever even mentioned it, and most people didn't even know we had muskies here.  It's probably a miracle that TWRA was devoting an effort to stocking them and creating the fishery at all, much less managing it in a way that would comport with what someone from up north like Dahlberg, where muskies are popular, might have in mind.  Now that the fishery is getting more attention, one would expect more stringent management to follow.

Incidentally, regarding Dahlberg, this is interesting:

http://donjordanoutdoors.com/pages/molestfish.htm

http://about-flyfishing.com/library/weekly/aa052599.htm

I stumbled across it while trying to figure out if the muskie show would be airing at any watchable hour soon where I could see it.  I've always kind of felt a tiny bit like the shutterbug and t.v. camera stuff has the potential to be a little rough on the fish if it's not done with restraint in mind.

bd

[MikeA]

Mike,
   So I guess that means that the state really DOES know what they're talking about when they want to leave the steam plant unregulated for a massive slaughter of one of their most expensive fish AND that they are totally on the ball since they really haven't had the care or foresight to cultivate their already native trophy musky populations let alone help out the fish they've stocked. I guess the TWRA agents that have been seen gut hooking musky from the bank (had one officer tell me he hoped I'd kill everyone I saw) know whats up. Oh and their decision to manage the system (Collins) with the best trophy potential and reproduction as a "put and take" musky fishery is nothing short of revolutionary....meaning you'd get laughed out of any other state if you said you manage a proven trophy musky fishery. No offense but these musky aren't new....they've been here since there has been a TWRA and they nearly let them become extinct in the 50s here. Granted its a two edged sword Mike but having a guy like Dahlberg go to bat for us is how you get Shit done. If none of this recent popularity in musky fishing had occurred this state would see a gradual decline by e few caraway minded locals left unchecked. No offense TWRA does some great things but for the time they've had musky in their waters the status of their stockings and regulations is nigh inexcusable.

My post isn't about Billy. I don't know the guy from Adam, so let's not try to drag names on here and start a big shit sling please.

My comment is about the recent popularity of the fishery (not just the one in the film). The way I see it is 15 years ago the places around this region were kept under tight wraps. I fished the rivers with a fried who grew up in the area and we'd often hook Musky when we were smallmouth fishing. There were plenty of fish then and there still are today. Now, people come in set up shop and sell sell sell trips at any and all costs. Then when the pressure gets high and fish start disappearing suddenly it's TWRA's fault. You've made the comment before that if a few rednecks can deplete a fishery then TWRA isn't doing they're job. TWRA is a very small group of officers trying to cover an enormous area where every sportsman KNOWS what's best for his Fish or his deer or his Turkey, etc. The strongest proponent for protecting a fragile fishery is YOU!!!

Hey I'm all for stronger regulation. I'm all for catch and release on all trophy fish in the state, period. But I'm also smart enough to know who can make stuff like that happen and that publicly deriding them does not work in my favor. I've met many of these guys and Every one of them,,, with the exception of one who's a giant doucebag, are stand up sportsmen.

[bdavis]

I just have one question for you fellas, if you saw muskies being drug on the bank, grossly mishandled, had the lines cut with the hook still in the gullet, thrown in the grass to be left for dead, would you think the regulations in that area should be changed?  I know some of you guys are super secretive and all, but sometimes alittle publicity is needed to get the point across.  Twenty years ago, Melton Hill was full of northern pike.  I never got to fish for them because there was so many people against the stockings, that they never stocked the lake again and northerns are just a memory in Melton Hill.  With all the buzz about Melton Hill muskies, it will be fished out in a few years if regulation changes are not made.  The local tackle shop stocks up with 8 inch rainbow trout and tells people to go and catch those huge muskies.  In my 8 years of chashing them, I have seen the decline of the fishery.  Radio tagging studies have proven that all of the muskies use the discharge during the winter months.  Back in the summer, the local musky fishermen met in Crossville, and discussed the musky fisheries.  Did anybody on this forum even bother to go?  The region 4 biologist stated that the plant needed to be off limits to fishing during the winter months, but TWRA did not agree with him.  What I have done is used a larger voice to convey my message that the musky fishing on Melton Hill is severely affected by the amount of damage done in a short time period.  TWRA wants public input, I felt that we had to expand the number of complainers and hopefully it will work.  Everybody has their own opinion about the matter, but if you guys have never been around the plant during the winter months and witness the carnage, you don't have much of a leg to stand on.  I support the TWRA in many ways, I appreciate the fishery for what it is, but I feel special regulations should be put in place when the fishery is being taken advantage of.  Sorry for the rant, but you guys can't possibly understand why we did the show if you haven't fished there. 

[bd]

Ok, I get what you're saying.  Two things though.  

First, to reiterate what I said before:

muskie fishing had gotten virtually zero attention in this State until just a few years ago - people hardly ever even mentioned it, and most people didn't even know we had muskies here.  It's probably a miracle that TWRA was devoting an effort to stocking them and creating the fishery at all, much less managing it in a way that would comport with what someone from up north like Dahlberg, where muskies are popular, might have in mind. Now that the fishery is getting more attention, one would expect more stringent management to follow.

Emphasis on the second, bolded part.

Second, there's an old saying that "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar."  I hear what you're saying about the regs being changed.  We just went through something similar in order to convince TWRA to put much more stringent restrictions on the brown trout on the Caney Fork.  

But we did it by showing up at the Commission meetings, thanking TWRA and the Commission for their support, showing there was a lot of interest in improving the fishery, and talking about what they could do to help us make it better.  It takes a lot of time, a lot of talking to TWRA and Commissioners, and a lot of showing up.

Never once did I hear anyone say, "TWRA, you're doing a poor job of managing the Caney, and you should be ashamed for letting bait chunkers come in and harvest trophy brown trout with reckless abandon."  It wasn't about criticizing; it was about saying, "Thanks for all your hard work, but we've got something really special here, and we need your help to make it better."

I just think that's likely to work better than badmouthing TWRA and, apparently (I haven't seen the show) embarrassing them on a nationally-televised t.v. show.  TWRA's budget is short - I'd be afraid that if you embarrass them and make them out to be the enemy, they're just as likely to say, "You know, we are very short on money, the locals hate the muskie, the muskie fishermen treat us like we're a bunch of stupid jerks, and maybe we should just forget stocking muskie and allocate that money to trout hatcheries or deer managment or something instead."

bd

[bdavis]

Try watching the show and you will see that there is no bashing.  Just a cry out for public comment to stop whats happening.  I just got a call from Larry and he said they show is going to air again tomorrow on the NBC Sports Newtork at 6:30 pm.

[MikeA]

We've had the same kinds of issues in our tailwaters with Brown Trout... The big Striper population at Gallatin steam plant have been getting hammered for years. My post wasn't meant towards you personally Billy, it was meant to be a generalization of all that's been happening lately. You seem to have a very personal interest in the well being of these fish and I can certainly respect that.

FWIW, closing the hot water discharge to fishing of any kind would be like closing crappie season in the spring. It might be good for the fishery but the natives are gonna string you up by your balls. And those natives buy licenses. It probably isn't going to happen.  

Ohh and at least two members here were at the meeting. I kept a post stuck at the top of this forum with a reminder of it.

So how'd the trip with Larry go?

[bdavis]

The whole reason I know so much about this place is that I am a native as well.  I used to fish the plant for many years prior to the arrival of the muskies.  I know what kind of damage is being done.  This unlike the river musky fisheries is brand new.  They have only started stocking muskies heavily since 1998 on Melton Hill.  These restrictions have been talked about for a few years and each year it never makes it very far.  The biologist has made the complaints that what goes on here is similar to what happed at Cherokee a few years back, so what did they do to solve the problem?  They closed off a few hundred acres to all fishing.  Bull Run is a musky thermal sanctuary and hopefully things will change.  I've met with my Commissioner and he was really receptive and told me he would be involved in preserving the musky fishery.  We are further along than you guys might imagine.  The trip with Larry was great, we caught alot of fish and we had a great time.  I talk to him regularly and he appreciates what I am trying to accomplish. 

[Kylemc]

Hey Billy. It was good meeting you in Allen's shop the other day. I am definatley going to take you up on your offer. Maybe we can teach each other a thing or two. Keep up the good work.

Kyle

[bd]

I absolutely love bD's "Exhibit A" response....    

Just saying how the politics work, that's all.

By the way, Mike has a point in comparing closing a steam plant discharge to closing crappie season in the spring.  The locals would come out with pitchforks and torches to the next Commission meeting if you tried to do that.

TWRA already has a big enemy in the General Assembly in the form of Rep. Nicely in District 18.  They don't need another enemy just down the road in Lenoir City.

Please understand, I'm not against what you're trying to do here.  I'm just saying maybe you need to go about it in a more diplomatic way.  And I haven't seen the show; I'm just going off the comments that it portrays TWRA's management in a very bad light.

bd

[MikeA]

I haven't seen the show, never fished the lake. My original post was based on the wrong assumption that it was going to be yet another show about the rivers in this region where, we aren't receiving heavy stocking.

I've seen the stupidity and greedy attitudes that people exhibit when fishing the steam plants. It's why I avoid them like the plague. I'd be all for 100% C&R in these places for the stocked species. I'd be all for tighter regs, more stocking, and even a Muskie Stamp to support them. However, even though I almost never ever fish these places I just don't think I could support closing them to fishing.

[bd]

In an ideal world, I'd like to see any of these trophy fisheries - stripers, muskie, brown trout over 26", whatever - treated almost like big game management.  Let people buy their "tag" for the season, and if they want to take a trophy home for the grill or the wall or whatever, they can fill that tag.  Otherwise it's catch and release.  I don't think that idea would ever catch on, but it would be my ideal.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a stamp for any stocked, put and take species, so that TWRA has better funding AND a financial incentive to maximize the potential of those fisheries.  I imagine the trout fishery wouldn't be anywhere near where it is in Tennessee if sales of trout permits weren't a motivating factor.  Who knows though.

bd

[bdavis]

good discussion fellas, I'm going to leave you guys with it.  I'm not worried about stepping on anybodies toes or locals with pitchforks, all I am worried about is having 50 inch muskies to fish for.  I've caught 6 of them this year all outside the steamplant and I feel it could have been much better if people weren't allowed to go into that plant and pretty much catch them anyway they can especially using live bait.  Once you guys hook onto a 50 inch class fish, you'll understand how valuable these fish are.  I hope TWRA can look past a few angry people to let a true trophy fishery fluorish.  Seems like I'll have to take my arguments elsewhere.